Theresa May's white flag.
Richard Littlejohn forecast this almost a year ago and he was right as he usually is. People criticise theDaily Mail but it is the best bloody paper on the stands bar none and he is a top writer. I await revelations from May and the Cabinet which I am sure willbear out the rest of Littlejohn's predictions.
What say all you members interested in the future of this country?
I decided to come down on the side of a surrender from May rather than ask what do people think she is up to. I am not totally convinced that it is such a thing in view of her choice of location for her speech. Machiavelli was born there and that could be significant. Her speech was very carefully worded and really does not make any definite committments since it is merely an offer to get things rolling again. If it turns out that your supposition is correct then she is playing a good strategic game. I also believe that no matter what we offer the EU will still try it on and demand much more than we propose. TM still has a lot of opposition in her cabinet and Parliament but the sad thing is that she could have had a massive lead as far as numbers are concerned. She could have kicked Labour into the long grass for twenty years, the LibDems are barely even a rump, and had she played her cards right the largest voice against her - the SNP would be merely an irritation as always.
I did think that there might be more interest in the subject but maybe people are fed up of reading about Brexit. We shall have to wait and see but from the early rumblings from the EU they seem to think that we are on the run and are still talking of a divorce bill in addition to two more years of payment from Britain. They are not entitled to a penny and my view as always is that we should simply tell them we are not making any more concessions, not taking part in any more discussions but waiting out the two years from the declaration of Article 50 and sit back. No more cash - end of story. They will come back and the tighter we sit the less they will ask for. They do not deserve a penny more.
Currently the EU members are neither one thing or the other. We are not Nations but Nation-States. Once the process of harmonisation is completed we will all be simply States and all subject to the true and full dictatorship of the EU where no member State has any say in anything. If you can't see that then truly there is no hope. That is why I voted to leave as did 17.4 million others who had the common sense to do so.
Have you ever read the Kalergi Report?
It seems pointless arguing as we will never agree on any major point and you are not responding to the ones I have highlighted - ie - what is truly behind the farce of the Common Market which was the original selling point..
No doubt about it. Hammond and his gang are pulling May's string's it's all about delaying tactics Juncker,Barnier and remainers have vested interests in remaining as you know in this world money talks. I've asked some people why they voted remain the most common answer was European holiday's would cost more wow what a powerful argument if thats not a vested reason i don't know what is.
Quite a while since I posted on here but this subject is important and it is very interesting to read the different views. Personally I have always been in favour of a European Union as it surely makes trading easier and less costly. But the biggest issue is the free movement of people from one country to another which does not go down well with many, especially so amongst a sizeable proportion of the older generation. Those of more tender years don't seem to share the same view as was proved by the percentage vote on leaving or remaining in the EU and as time marches on I don't doubt that many of the decisions will be reversed. Sadly I won't be around to see this happen but happen it almost certainly will. Many of the younger people I know have friends from other countries and my niece is in a very happy relationship with a lad from Ghana and have a mixed race and totally delightful young daughter who is just a treat. Its called progress. Thank goodness.
You are right in what you say - many who voted remain were simply thinking along the same lines - our phones will cost more, holidays cost more but I suspect very strongly that it was mainly the younger people who thought that. No thought about deeper matters but that's probably because of the insidious propaganda they have been subjected to by the EU at our expense. There was also the Project Fear campaign which has been thoroughly discredited in no uncertain manner. The vested interests are of course the pensions that the top boys are accruing from our contributions and also the Kudos of their positions. The salaries, the allowances, the perks just keep on adding up for them.
Where do you get the idea that everyone else on here agrees with me? Not swallowing the tales you may have read are you? The sources were very unreliable - in fact so far from the truth they were laughable. Ask around - run a poll if you like!
I don't think any one of us is so blinded by prejudice that we would be bothered about your niece or anyone else having friends from other countries or who they marry. That is hardly the issue.
The main one as you point out is the influx of too many migrants, mostly illegal, who are spoiling things for the rest of us. That may seem blunt but it is true. I have just spent time explaining the true nature of the EU and have no inclination to recap on it. Trading is one thing but paying out for other nations to join at our expense is utterly bloody barmy.
Surely until we cut the chord joining us to the EU, we have to pay the fees. Although we pay £17Bn, we get £4Bn rebate and a further £4Bn to our farmers etc. The £20Bn touted as the "divorce bill" is roughly the two years remaining membership. I honestly don't think that any one person actually knows how we will be affected by Brexit, nor do i think that much thought was given. Teresa May, as you rightly said, messed up by calling a General Election which she thought she would breeze through. It has allowed Labour to forge on and it would appear that the mighty Germany will suffer a similar fate since their elections. The Conservatives are now jostling for position for the PM's post and sharpening their knives. I honestly don't think that we hold the stronger hand in the negotiations and if it goes badly, we could end up with the bumblers Corbyn , MacDonald et al plunging us into another mess. I think that the PM's days are numbered and she knows it. Who will take over, heavens knows.
I have no objection to paying the normal membership annual contributions but anything else is a non-starter for me. I'm with Bill in that I don't think that with the way Corbyn is being lionised at present no one will rock the boat sufficiently to cause Theresa May to resign. In fact with the rest of them as they are she is the best we have. Not saying a lot I know but there you have it for me. Currently the Labour Party have the worst people at the top that they have ever had, the weakest leader who can't control anything because he is in thrall to the unions. The People at the head back in Attlee's days did not lead campaigns of bitterness and backbiting. They fought hard but fairly. Shame their kind have gone even though I would never vote Labour again.
There has been too much wasted time before Article 50 was invoked and this is where we are weakening our hand. I still believe that we do have the main factor which is our cash which the EU is desperate to get its claws into before we leave.
I don't believe there will be a cliff edge if we do not have a transition period. Other countries will not sit by while the EU plays silly beggars and cuts their throats at the same time. I also believe that once we are out - if we do get out - then others will follow once they see how we prosper and we will do so. That is my opinion.
For me - and I am truly not knocking Scotland - I don't find it a place to spend a holiday. Each to his own. I prefer a bit of sunshine - pretty much guaranteed round the Med but that is pretty well out of reach now due to the state of health of both my wife and I. We do have free accomodation most of the year if we want it at our daughter's caravan in North Wales and it's on the most beautiful laid out and landscaped site I have ever seen.
As to my 'supporters' then perhaps people agree with me because I am right more than I am wrong or maybe they simply think the same way.
With regard to the £350 million it's not as far away from the truth as a lot would like to believe, the speach i heard Boris give stated of this some COULD go to NHS it did'nt say WOULD the net amount of contributions for 2016 were £235 million predicted to rise to £280 billion by 2019 but of course these figures are not the end we also contribute 12% of the EU VAT total which everyone conveniently forget's.
If our negotiating team walked away today do you really think trade with the EU would cease instantly no chance for a start trade between EU and UK £310 Billion and trade between UK and EU £240 Billion leaving a £70 Billion deficit (2016 figures) all being said do you really believe that either side will wish to loose this again i don't think so, the UK is the EU's largest customer within the bloc it's laughable to think BMW would close all it's dealership's in the UK and they are only one business.
Taking our country back is absolutely nothing to do with the empire, nobody in their right mind would think this.
The vested interest i'm talking about are those with their fingers in the EU pie ie Kinnock etc. and in case i appear to be biased the many Tories and business people also on the EU gravy train.
I'm not getting at you John i respect your views but do not necessarily agree with them all.
It's a unfortuate but a prerequisite of becoming a politician is to be economic with the truth and that's all party's, as most of the info we get comes from the media we have to read between the lines to get some sort of truth and try to get more info on subjects if possible i do try to do this. I know the statement was on the bus but my words were from the horses mouth but i have to agree the statement on the bus was to say the least naive if not stupid and i for one was not particularly happy but again not strictly untrue. We can trade with the EU exactly the same as we would the rest of the world and it will happen. As for Theresa's speech common sense are the key word's but the old saying stands it takes two to tango and is apt in this case as a Brexiteer if we could reach a generally acceptable agreement it would be better all round animosity is pointless as i said before trade between UK and EU will carry on regardless. The Boeing saga (this will happen worldwide and not just UK and the EU) had absolutely nothing to do with Brexit it's all about a madman opening his mouth during pre vote speeches and now has to follow through with his policy's in some ways for a politician being true to his words is unusual. And before someone says he's not a politician he became one the minute he took the oath, your word's America first sum's the situation clearly it won't only affect us it will reverberate around the world.
Terry you are right many people are fed up with Brexit unfornately we are all embroiled in it whether we like it or not and the agony will carry on for at least a year and a half if not many more i do hope not.
The reason many people are fed up with Brexit is not only the battle between the EU's so called negotiators - who are nothing of the kind but more highwaymen - but the constant moans of the remainers who will not accept the verdict. It's pointless arguing that it was only 'X' percent or quoting a figure but had the vote gone the other way I truly believe that most of us would have simply accepted the fact that we had lost and shut up. If there is an argument about statements affecting the issue, signs on vehicles, speeches or what have you then how about the doom and gloom merchants and their pronouncements which have mostly been proved utterly false already? I look forward to the most of the rest being similarly shot down in due course.
Thanks John. It would be interesting to know the average age of those who voted to leave and those who voted to stay and that is not a criticism of the leavers. I have a lot of time for our oldies and actually volunteer for a charity which helps older people in many ways to improve their lifestyle. But we live in a free country in which everyone is entitled to their point of view but as far as this issue is concerned it is a fact that the majority of younger people voted to remain and older people voted to leave. This quite probably means that another referendum will be held sometime in the future which could well have the opposite result. I would put money on it that 20 years down the line we will be a fully fledged member.( WHAT IS STRANGE IS WHY SO MANY LEAVERS THINK WE ARE GIVING UP OUR COUNTRY TO A BUNCH OF FOREIGNERS WHICH IS AS FAR FROM THE TRUTH AS YOU CAN GET) What us who wish to stay believe is that countries who club together in a mutual relationship must have a beneficial effect to all concerned. It does not mean we wish to be ruled by Europe, we just don't want to be left standing on the outside when every country which is a member will give first consideration in any trade agreement to those who are part of their group. Younger people move freely around Europe with no thoughts of it being different which is why I believe it is a stone cold certainty that all we have done by voting to leave is we have taken a fairly short break from our friends across the channel. In my family practically every member over sixty wants to leave, apart from yours truly, but those under this age have exactly the opposite view. UNQUOTE.
What I find stranger is the fact that the one's who wish to remain within the EU cannot grasp the fact that by doing so they are giving up the control of the UK to an outside body of bureaucrats and civil servants who are controlling our daily lives without us (the UK) having any input into those decisions that are made in Brussels.
The conclusion I have arrived at is that the 27 (with the UK 28) member states national governments are relegated to the level of regional councils only. Merely implementing laws and diktats which are passed down from the unelected* commissioners in Brussels. (*unelected and unremovable by the populace of any member state).
When the original decision to join the EU was taken in the 1970s it was, as I and millions of other UK citizens were led to believe, a joining of countries with the intention of developing a common market place for all the countries involved, trade free tarifs across Europe, nothing more, nothing less.
Over the years the professional political class, from all the countries involved, have duped the populations by not being honest as to the ultimate aim of this unification, " A UNITED STATES OF EUROPE" answerable not to the various populations and nationalities, but to a cabel of unelected professional political bureaucrats situated in Brussels, politicians who are answerable to no-one. They are not elected by the masses, therefore they cannot be removed.
This type of governance is not democratic, it is dictatorship pure and simple.
When national governments such as Greece and Italy are told what they can do, and cannot do by unelected bureaucrats sitting in Brussel, what other way could this type of rule be named???
Over the years we, and other nations have been brain-washed by our own sympathetic politicians and news media, many of whom were/are keen to climb aboard the EU gravy-train, for the top dogs, naturally, not the peons peasants or plebs.
Being part and parcel of the EU implies that we, as a nation are under the control of political masters over whom we have no control, in respect of, that we as a people cannot elect or disabuse them of power should the occasion arise.
The political masters in Europe are elected by the EU Parliament, a conglomeration of 27/28 states, consisting of 751 members, each of the 27/28 states being represented pro-rata (proportional representation) to the population of individual states, (smaller states are allowed a slightly higher proportion of EMPs, in an attempt to alleviate any feeling of being browbeaten by the larger nations).
Theses EMPs then elect commissioners to the various arms of the EU government machine ( these commissioners can only be demoted by the EMPs, national populations have no control) the only control national populations have are when the elections for EU EMPs arise in individual nations.
The commissioners sit in private, their decisions are made, then passed to the main house, should the house disagree with the commissioners declarations, the commission can (and often do) override parliament. I believe the commissioners elect the President, who is the over-riding authority on all decision, diktats, laws rules etc etc, he is in reality a Autocrat, Dictator, whatever.
Whichever way one views the EU, there is no way it can be addressed as democratic.
So if people like you, and as you say the majority of young people prefer this type of government, rule by dictatorship, then people such as myself would be failing in our duty as citizens if we did not attempt to highlight the type of government that belonging to the EU entails.
History proves time and time again dictatorship erodes the freedom of the masses, the only beneficiaries are the one's making the rules.
I think people should look long and hard at what short term benefits provide, I recall a book with a character named Napoleon (he was/is a bit of a pig) and think whether that is the type of government they would be happy with.
Good to see you back but don't forget us while you are off on your next break from the hurly burly of FR.
It seems that all the explanations which I and others have given as to the truth behind the formation of the EU have fallen on deaf ears. I don't claim that I am some mystic Oracle but I have taken the trouble to research the subject in perhaps greater depth than others. I have mentioned the Kalergi Report and if you haven't read it then I suggest you do. In this thread I have repeated the salient points which I have made several times in the Forums. The setting up of the EU has gone exactly as suggested by the KR - set up a trading bloc, sell it as that for a number of years, slowly change the way in which it operates until the people are so brain washed aided by the insidious propaganda pumped into the younger generation at school level and use the money from the membership fees to fund it, slowly erode the powers of the members states - not nations by this time - by cancelling the power of vetoes, take away the power of each state to decide anything which is not sanctioned by the EU until it is virtually too late for anyone to leave, write in regulations which insist that they have the authority to stop you leaving or make things so difficult that it inhibits any such move, take away all remnants of independence or sovereignty and tell you at the same time what a blessing it is for you to be a member. There is more but I feel that that is sufficient and I tire of repeating the same mantra. It may not suit everyone to read it but as it is said - sometimes the truth is painful.
This explains why the younger generation are more in favour of the EU than the older ones. What good is it to be a member of a club which tells you what you can and cannot do and you have no say in it? I have asked many times in these forums for someone, anyone to tell me a single benefit which accrues to this country by being a member. To date no one has given me an answer - just arguments that we are better off within it than without it. Why must we older people sit back and let the younger ones decide for us when we are the ones responsible for their prosperity and ease of living because it is nothing to do with the EU. They are reducing the quality of life, not enhancing it. To me the overriding benefit of independence is that we can say who comes into the country, how we spend our money, what rules we follow, have pints, miles, yards and inches if we wish.
If we do get out without being too soft a touch financially the younger ones will realise sooner or later that there is more to life than the latest IPad, cheap phone calls back home while on holiday or cheap holidays for their enjoyment. They have grown up in a fettered state without realising it. Freedom is wonderful. Membership of the EU is not being free. It is what is at the root of the Kalergi Report - a submissive population doing exactly what the Lords and Masters tell them to do with no alternative but to obey.
I believe that once we are out there will be no turning back and that others will follow suit. There are rumblings of discontent throughout the EU and a few countries are waiting patiently to see what happens. The EU is such an arrogant organisation that the fact that we have decided to leave has upset their fragile egos which is why they are seeking to belittle us and it is time that we simply withdrew from the negotiations, tell them that we are going, no money on the table other than two years subscriptions and in truth I object to that with the way they are behaving. We do have the whip hand no matter how they cavill and pretend otherwise.
I want none of the EU! It is a misbegotten, rotten, corrupt and stinking mess. Set up on a lie, perpetuated the same way, we went into it on a lie from Heath and it is still being sold the same way. Nothing but lies.
It would seem by your explanation of how the EU works that we have very little say in any of the dealings in which it becomes involved. As a member of a group such as this I would expect to have just as much say as any other member but no more and in any club of any description you have to accept rules. If you don't like the rules you get out.UNQUOTE.
If you are satisfied with being one voice/vote among 27/28, you must realise that the chance of you, as an individual, hoping to have some influence among the group is slightly less than zero, unless you ( as a nation) are extremely versatile in the persuasion department.
I am aware that some members (pro EU) often state that if the UK is to be influential in the development of the EU then we must be inside the EU.
Very much akin to the lottery, you have to have a ticket for any chance of winning a prize.
So just how influential has the UK been in moulding the path the EU is trundling along?
"Previous research shows the UK is easily the most frequently outvoted country and Business for Britain research last year indicated that by 2014, Britain had voted "No" 55 times in the Council of Ministers and lost every time, since records began in 1996."
I think the above paragraph give us some idea of the influence the UK has had in guiding the bludgeoning monster that the eurocrats are steering the 27/28 states towards, we have vetoed proposals that could be harmful to this country (UK) 55 times, success rate, zero, how influential is that?
Contrary to some members opinion of me as a hater of foreigners, I enjoy meeting and mixing with people from other states/cultures, my overriding objection is that I do not want this country (UK) to be dictated/governed/ruled to by people, who like me, have the interests of their own nationalities foremost.
The situation this country finds itself in is not , as you say, as a member of a club, where we can come and go as and when the mood takes us.
The whole demography of the UK is being altered, along with every member of the EU into one Super State.
The dream of the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s, and if I recall correctly, that was not intended as a democratically elected government.
The ghosts of the Nazi leaders must be enjoying the spectacle of their dream coming to fruition, "Ein Volk", "Ein Deutschland", forgive me if I wax too lyrical, for "Ein Deutschland" read "Ein Vereinigte Staaten von Europa"
Hi TC, trust you and yours are well, I agree with everything you have posted.
Hi JD good to see you are keeping the threads alive, stay well old pal.
Hi JR glad you enjoyed your holiday, did you do any sight seeing?
The stepson and family are going to Lanzarote , and my better half and I have been pressured into dog-sitting whilst they are away, it is going to be hard staying in St Ives, gallivanting, and eating and drinking in god knows how many different pubs and restaurants, walking the coastal pathway, trudging along so many different beaches (memo to self, must pop into the Sloop in the harbour, magnificent fish pie (slobber,slobber), as I have said, "HARD" but some-one must do it.
As a Swede I am so proud of you Brits. You have the blood of conquerors, of geniuses, poets and princes. So many seem to have forgotten that there is something so much more than just the material riches. When the riches of our hearts die, so does our soul. The soul of your country can once more be lit bright aflame once more and I so hope it will me for my country one day as well.