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Our Place In Europe???

{{forumThread.upVotes}} Created by Who Does Guard The Guardians?? 11 December 2011 11:01 20194 views Link  
Who Does Guard The Guardians?? 11 December 2011 11:01
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Originally Posted by
Our Place In Europe???

Having watched the events at the lastest!!!! meeting of the EUs heads of state, I am more than a little surprised at the lack of comment from posters. Today I watched and listened to Nick Clegg on the Andrew Marr programme, what a total waste of good oxygen that man is, Cleggy reminded me of a chicken that had just been beheaded. Across the Atlantic the Argies must be rubbing their hands with glee, now would be a good time to reclaim the Falklands, no aircraft carriers, limited number of aircraft, army stretched to the limit, navy in decline regards ships. Would the Frogs lend us their carrier? Would the Belgians supply us with ammo? Would the EU nations loan or rent us cargo or troop transports? Has call me Dave, done the right thing? Or is this a political game the politicians love to play. Should be interesting over the next few months. The Eu is copying Nero, they play games by having important meetings whilst the Union goes down the pan.
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..... 11 December 2011 12:40
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: Don Knight Having watched the events at the lastest!!!! meeting of the EU's heads of state, I am more than a little surprised at the lack of comment from posters. Today I watched and listened to Nick Clegg on the Andrew Marr programme, what a total waste of good oxygen that man is, Cleggy reminded me of a chicken that had just been beheaded. Across the Atlantic the Argies must be rubbing their hands with glee, now would be a good time to reclaim the Falklands, no aircraft carriers, limited number of aircraft, army stretched to the limit, navy in decline regards ships. Would the Frogs lend us their carrier? Would the Belgians supply us with ammo? Would the EU nations loan or rent us cargo or troop transports? Has call me Dave, done the right thing? Or is this a political game the politicians love to play. Should be interesting over the next few months. The Eu is copying Nero, they play games by having important meetings whilst the Union goes down the pan. [/QUOTE Don. Try Nigel Farage (u.kip.) on You Tube " What gives you the right to dictate to Greece and Ireland" plus many more of his speeches to Euro Politicians. whether he is right or wrong he does say what he thinks, no pussyfooting around. Would like your opinion on his views. Regards j.d.
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Steve Greenwood 11 December 2011 13:13
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Originally Posted by
Unfortunately, Don, the U.K. no longer has much political clout in Europe. This meeting was to save the Euro zone countries from going into terminal decline and, as the U.K. is not part of those who have the Euro as a currency we had little chance of getting anything like what Cameron wanted. It is purely an economic problem. The Conservatives want the U.K. out of the E.U and the Lib Dems want us to be fully integrated with the E.U. Cameron was in a No Win situation after he had pledged that the U.K. would not sign anything unless they got something in return only to be faced with 26 countries backing the proposals that would (or will) leave the U.K. even more vulnerable to economic pressures. Germany and France are the leading forces in Europe and the other countries apart from the U.K. trust those two to get them back on an even keel. I await Camerons report back to the Commons with interest as I fear he will be castigated by some of his own party, the Lib Dems and Labour for not being able to deliver on his pledges. The coalition is teetering on the brink of imploding.
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Who Does Guard The Guardians?? 11 December 2011 13:47
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Originally Posted by
Replying to john daly. Must admit I am in accord with most of what Nigel Farage says regarding Europe. Replying to Steven greenwood, I admit Cameron was in a hard place, and the summit was about the Euro, but he quite rightly, in my opinion, refused to sign a new treaty tying us to closer political integration, the Germans and the French, again in my opinion, are using the Euro disaster to frighten the other governments into signing away their national existence, Cleggy stated that he wanted Britain to be a leading light in the European experience, the buffoon has not yet realised that Britain today is no longer a big player in world politics, we are small fry in a big pond. Europe sells more to us than we export to them, we depend on them for approx 40% of our exports. Allow Sarkozy and Merkel to dictate all the terms, and we shall finish up as a satellite state of Europe, with no more influence than Greece.
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Nobby 11 December 2011 13:55
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Originally Posted by
"The first poll conducted since the acrimonious Brussels summit shows that a total of 62 per cent of people agreed with the Prime Minister's defiant stance, with just 19 per cent against. Furthermore, most people believe the euro is doomed to fail and almost half think the EU will break up. They also fear the summit has given too much power to Germany". I read a lot Steve, and what I read is that there is little evidence that Brussels is capable of running a bath let alone becoming the "Government of Europe". It's surely a joke to think that Brussels, which is incapable of setting  and controlling its own budget, wants the power to set every other countries'. If you locked the Merkel's and Sarkozy's of this world into a room for six months they'd kill each other before they agreed on anything, yet these are the very same people that want financial control of the full EU membership? It is very evident from where I sit that the general mood in Britain is for less control over their lives from Europe, not more! So maybe, for once you have a British PM who has stood up and said loud and clear that enough is enough? The UK isnt in the Euro...a wise move on someones part... so the UK is not completely isolated and remains an open economy plugged into the global network. That makes the UK as isolated as someone left on the dock in Southampton as the Titanic sailed away.' Last edited by Colin Hall
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Terry Carey 11 December 2011 14:20
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Originally Posted by
Our place in Europe???

Colin, I liked your post even better the second time I read it. I particularly loved your last sentence. The meeting which has just ended with Cameron showing a lot of grit should have been about solving the current crisis. Instead, as usual, the clowns fudged the issue and tried to mend something broken by ignoring it and trying to do something else as a solution which really had no relevance - I know thats an oxymoron but it fits the situation. TC.
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Steve Greenwood 11 December 2011 15:40
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Originally Posted by
Just a couple of points. France and, especially, Germany are the power houses of Europe. They will not allow the Euro to fail albeit certain countries may withdraw from the currency. The fact that many people wish that the U.K. would withdraw from the E.U. is at odds with most of the experts that insist that withdrawal will harm the U.K.s recovery from the mess that its in. I hope Cameron is right and the U.K. will not be sidelined by the other European members when it comes to making important decisions but this may be a forlorn hope rather than reality. The coalition partners may find that they would be better off going their separate ways and then a general election would be called within a short space of time. The views on Europe by both are diametrically opposed and I cant see that many more compromises will be met. The wheel hasnt come off completely but its only hanging on by a thread, IMO;
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Marie Drew 11 December 2011 16:15
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: Steve Greenwood [I]Just a couple of points.  France and, especially, Germany are the power houses of Europe. They will not allow the Euro to fail albeit certain countries may withdraw from the currency. ----------------------------------------- I disagree with your statement that France is the powerhouse of Europe. Germany definitely but Sarkozy is hanging on to Merkels coat tails and with very good reason. It is not just the Mediterranean countries which are in dire economic straits but France too. Sarkozy was angered when the Frances credit rating was lowered making borrowing more expensive and thus adding to his economic woes, In contrast because of the austere policies which the UK has put in place, our credit rating is much higher as there is more confidence in our policies by the financial markets. This consequently puts us in a better position for borrowing at more competitive interest rates. Whether this latest agreement is sufficient to stabalise the financial markets for the Euro to continue in its present form, remains to be seen. Personally, I believe this agreement among the Eurozone countries is a fudge, after all it is only a tightening up of the rules already in the Lisbon Treaty, which were never adhered to. In time, the same countries will again find they cannot keep to the strict fiscal policies, not withstanding there will be more scrutiny of budgets, and they will eventually drop out of the euro leaving just a lesser number of northern countries with a common currency. Germany will no longer prop up deficit countries with bailouts or allow the Central European Bank to do likewise as it would mean rampant inflation for Germany and Merkel knows the German people would not stand for that - historical fears of the 1920s situation. Thus, the stance which David Cameron has taken will become irrelevant and overtaken by events.
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Ros Comain. 11 December 2011 16:17
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Originally Posted by
I believe their are three simple questions we have to ask ourselves about the EU. Do we wish to once again, determine our own Laws, eg Human Rights, Immigration and Employment. Are we stupid enough to believe the left wing propaganda, spearheaded by the French and Germans, ably abetted by most in the Labour party, the Liberals and BBC, trying to convince us that we cannot go it alone. Do we wish to continue paying £50,000000 per day, to prop up this Corrupt Unelected Left Wing Quango. It will be interesting to see over the next 6 months, how, each of 26 individual countries, will react to the pressures placed upon them by Germany and France to get their house in order. At the end of the day, they have all got their own self interests at heart, any agreements they come up with, will end up being a fudge, and that is the basic flaw in this concept of the EU. Has Boy Dave proved his credentials, time will tell.
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Marie Drew 11 December 2011 16:39
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Originally Posted by
The UK isn't in the Euro...a wise move on someone's part... so the UK is not completely isolated and  remains an open economy plugged into the global network.  That makes the UK  as isolated as someone left on the dock in Southampton as the Titanic sailed away.' [I] Last edited by Colin Hall[/I][/I][/QUOTE] -------------------------------------------- Colin The statement above is so apt. I read it in todays Sunday Times so it must be doing the rounds - the opinion of Terry Smith, Chief Executive of Tullett Prebon, the interdealer broker. Camereron did well to use the veto to protect the financial institutions in the City. I have written of this issue on previous threads as the majority of people in the UK are employed in service industries, much wealth is created in the Cilty of London. The government was quite right to reject any interference or regulation changes from the EU to our financial institutions as our financial position in the world would be drastically weakened. Conversely such changes would have little impact on France or Germany as their institutions are of leser importance.
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Nobby 11 December 2011 17:04
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Originally Posted by
I stopped reading the Times online when they started charging, so I havent read it for a couple of years!
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Nobby 11 December 2011 17:08
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Steve Greenwood The fact that  many people wish that the U.K. would withdraw from the E.U. is at odds with most of the experts that insist that withdrawal will harm the U.K.'s recovery from the mess that it's in. ; Those experts, like the political elite in the UK are very much out of touch with the reality of public opinion.
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Marie Drew 11 December 2011 17:25
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colin Hall I stopped reading the Times online when they started charging, so I haven't read it for a couple of years! ----------------------------------- I have the Times delivered daily. I know it is a Murdoch paper but opinion is more middle of the road unlike others which are free of charge and I can read on line like the Telegraph and Mail which are to the right and the Guardian and Mirror to the left. The BBC is I do not know what, perhaps liberal leftie, blows with the wind and very, very PC.
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Nobby 12 December 2011 04:09
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Originally Posted by
Is that guy Clegg a wart on the arse of progress or what?
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Mike Pass 12 December 2011 07:41
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Originally Posted by
hhhmmm!!!!

The Clagg...sorry, Clegg scum has proposed that senior citizens be subject to a means test against the free travel pass! This crap carries on and I may be forced to go to his flat in Sheffield or wherever and speak to him, severely. I shall be armed, of course with the standard issue sidearm!
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John (Scouse) Hirons 12 December 2011 10:13
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Michael Potter I believe their are three simple questions we have to ask ourselves about the EU. Do we wish to once again, determine our own Laws, eg  Human Rights, Immigration and Employment. Are we stupid enough to believe the left wing propaganda, spearheaded by the French and Germans, ably abetted by most in the Labour party, the Liberals and BBC,  trying to convince us that we cannot go it alone. Do we wish to continue paying £50,000000 per day, to prop up this Corrupt Unelected  Left Wing Quango. It will be interesting to see over the next 6 months, how, each of 26 individual countries, will react to the pressures placed upon them by Germany and France to get their house in order. At the end of the day, they have all got their own self interests at heart, any agreements they come  up with, will end up being a fudge, and that is the basic flaw in this concept of the EU. Has Boy Dave proved his credentials, time will tell. Alright Michael, Errmm, left wing??? I think if you had bothered to look you would have seen that Merkle is the leader of the Christian Democratic Union of Germany which is a right of center party & Sarkozy is the leader of the Union for a Popular Movement which is also a right of center party, or have they had a road to damascus revelation & veered to the left? Also if you had looked most of the governments in the EU are right of center. Some left wing plot eh!!!!
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Handle Oval Balls With Care. 12 December 2011 13:05
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Michael, Errmm, left wing??? I think if you had bothered to look you would have seen that Merkle is the leader of the Christian Democratic Union of Germany which is a right of center party & Sarkozy is the leader of the Union for a Popular Movement which is also a right of center party, or have they had a 'road to damascus' revelation & veered to the left? Also if you had looked most of the governments in the EU are right of center. Some left wing plot eh!!!! Now that didnt hurt did it old mucker,I can almost see the grin on your face.
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Sit Vis Nobiscum. 12 December 2011 18:59
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Originally Posted by
There are worries about a two speed europe, if the euro goes belly up, which is not beyond the bounds of possibility, the UKwould be in the faster lane. I really cannot see that when the implications of the 26 heading off in the same direction, is fully realised, and that so called sovereign countries are going to have to submit their budgets to the unelected in Brussels for approval, they are going to fully comply. All these years that we were assured that a federated europe would not happen, it just has. or is this the beginning of the fourth reich, as they all seem to be dancing to the German tune
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Who Does Guard The Guardians?? 12 December 2011 19:55
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Originally Posted by
I know that I am old and intransigent, and do not suffer fools at all, but I also know that I am by no means perfect, well not quite. This kerfuffle regarding the euro over the last few days has set bells ringing in my senile old brain, something is not quite right,"lemmings", "pied piper", kept running through the old grey matter, then eureka! the story of the"kings new clothes" surfaced. Replace the King, with, Sarkozy and Merkel, the 26 Eu leaders as the courtiers put Cameron in the little boys part, and there you have it, a 21st century fairytale. Who says fiction cannot become reality.
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Sit Vis Nobiscum. 12 December 2011 20:21
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Don Knight I know that I am old and intransigent, and do not suffer fools at all, but I also know that I am by no means perfect, well not quite. This kerfuffle regarding the euro over the last few days has set bells ringing in my senile old brain, something is not quite right,"lemmings", "pied piper", kept running through the old grey matter, then eureka! the story of the"kings new clothes" surfaced. Replace the King, with, Sarkozy and Merkel, the 26 Eu leaders as the courtiers put Cameron in the little boys part, and there you have it, a 21st century fairytale. Who says fiction cannot become reality. Danny Kaye would have been proud of you.
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Steve Greenwood 13 December 2011 12:52
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Originally Posted by
I have read through the comments on this thread and, as usual, the majority of the posters seem to want the U.K. out of the E.U. Now, Colin quoted a figure of 62% of an opinion poll wanted the U.K. out of The U.K. If we extrapolate that figure to a nation wide poll and it comes up with a similar figure, then the U.K.s population have the answer in their own hands. Vote the party which wants to take us out of the E.U. into power! Only one problem there. The Tories dont want us out. Labour dosnt want us out. The Lib Dems dont want us out. That only leaves UKIP! I shudder to think of the consequences of that happening
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..... 13 December 2011 16:11
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Steve Greenwood I have read through the comments on this thread and, as usual, the majority of the posters seem to want the U.K. out of the E.U. Now, Colin quoted a figure of 62% of an opinion poll wanted the U.K. out of The U.K.  If we extrapolate that figure to a nation wide poll and it comes up with a similar figure, then the U.K.s population have the answer in their own hands. Vote the party which wants to take us out of the E.U. into power! Only one problem there. The Tories don't want us out. Labour dosn't want us out. The Lib Dems don't want us out. That only leaves UKIP! I shudder to think of the consequences of that happening Wot about the Steve Greenwood Party Steve?. YOUSKIP.
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Steve Greenwood 13 December 2011 17:01
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: john daly Wot about the Steve Greenwood Party Steve?.    YOUSKIP. Wot!! Me enter politics,John? Id rather stick pins in me eyes!!!
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Sit Vis Nobiscum. 13 December 2011 18:29
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Originally Posted by
I was listening to the rant of a couple of euro political leaders on the radio on the way home from work, these two were berating David Cameron for not looking out for europe as a whole but looking out for british interests, of course he was! However, the Czech PM was on his side, he said "Dont be fooled by Merkel and Sarkozy, they are looking out for their own national interests." France is hanging on to Germanys coat tails cos they are broke. And Germany knows that they and they alone are the only Euro Country that can bail out the euro, Merkel is the Pied Piper. Italy Ireland and Greece have no choice. ditto Spain. There are others in europe that are looking at Britain with a bit of jealosy, not least the Dutch where there is a large minority that want the Guilder back. I wonder what will happen when, these countries look at the small print in detail, and find out that they cannot set their own budget,without the permission of the unelected beaurocrats in Brussels, under the rules set in Germany. The federal state of europe is with us.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 13 December 2011 18:32
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Originally Posted by
To my mind the idea of a British Chancellor of the Exchequer taking our budget plans for approval by a European committee is a none starter. Although Camerons claim that he used our veto is not correct, a veto stops a thing from happening in this case the treaty has gone through without us. Could he have done things differently? I dont know I wasnt there but it would seem that we will be having a few problems because of it.
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Sit Vis Nobiscum. 13 December 2011 18:45
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons To my mind the idea of a British Chancellor of the Exchequer taking our budget plans for approval by a European committee is a none starter. Although Camerons claim that he used our veto is not correct, a veto stops a thing from happening in this case the treaty has gone through without us. Could he have done things differently? I don't know I wasn't there but it would seem that we will be having a few problems because of it. Now I know Im going mad, Im in total agreement with something Scouse has said. I am going to lay down in a darkened room
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Who Does Guard The Guardians?? 13 December 2011 19:19
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Originally Posted by
I have no doubt I shall be corrected if I am mistaken. My limited understanding of the inner circle of the EU nations was/is that in the event of new rules regulations that fundamentally alter previous agreements, all members must agree, if one member exercised its veto, the proposed changes could not proceed. At the meeting last week, the constitution was being re-drawn to allow Brussels (German) politicians to vet all national budgets, and to set fiscal targets for all the 27 countries in the EU, in an attempt to cure the ills of the EU currency. It is my understanding that Cameron asked for safe-guards to be put in place to protect the financial institutions in the city of London, this was refused by the French and the Germans, who would like the financial centre of Europe to move from London to, where-ever on the continent. Upon this refusal Cameron vetoed the changes to the constitution, in the interests of the United Kingdom, and quite rightly so. The problem in Europe is the currency, and the dependancy of the poorer nations upon the richer ones, who they look to support their irresponsible national spending. To cure this malaise it does not require treaty change, it only requires restraint on reckless spending. So it stands to reason that the basket case countries will follow the money, GERMANY. When these sheep awake and realise that their very existence will depend on German largesse, the fire-works will start. Given a little time the house of cards will fall. I could have rambled on longer, but I didnt want you to nod off.
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Terry Carey 13 December 2011 19:51
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Originally Posted by
Our place in Europe???

No chance of me for one nodding off Don. A well put post and accurate in that Cameron did use the veto to stop certain things happening which he did not want to happen. If he didnt use it then why are so many members of the EU crying foul and accusing him of wrecking the negotiations? Why then are some of them shouting the odds about his use of the veto if he didnt use it? What happened was a usual fudge by the other members but Camerons main aim was achieved. He wasnt asking for the moon but simply stopping the EU from wrecking the City of Londons financial status among other considerations. The problem is that in two years the EU will be able to circumvent him whether he likes it or not. As has already been said when the full implications of dominance by Germany become more apparent and filter through the brains of the other member states they must surely take stock and not slavishly follow Deutchlands edicts. TC.
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Hells Last Issue 13 December 2011 20:39
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Originally Posted by
Franco/ German control over Europe

Watching the developments within Europe I can`t help but be surprised at the attitude of the politicians who are backing the Franco/German rescue plan for the Euro.I might be a bit paranoid but it seems to me that France and Germany are determined to take control of the Euro and Europe to esure that their countries come out of the present recession with a healthy prospect ahead and further enhance the ability of these two super states to bully other members into the line they will draw, further while watching the debale on tv today that was taking place at the Euro Parliament I watched European SHEEP slating Britain , as much as I hate the tories and all they stand for and for all they have done to our armed forces I say The Prime minister put in a Damn Good Days Work the other day So Give the Ero Sheep some more good old Common before the all end up eating Bratwurst with French GaRLIC bREAD.
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Ros Comain. 13 December 2011 23:18
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Michael, Errmm, left wing??? I think if you had bothered to look you would have seen that Merkle is the leader of the Christian Democratic Union of Germany which is a right of center party & Sarkozy is the leader of the Union for a Popular Movement which is also a right of center party, or have they had a 'road to damascus' revelation & veered to the left? Also if you had looked most of the governments in the EU are right of center. Some left wing plot eh!!!! [/QUOTE Think you are looking at the wrong political body Scouse, they are just the pawns in the eu power game. who are easily manipulated and coerced, or threatened by the eu bureaucrats, to fall into line, a prime example is when Ireland voted no, they were summoned to Brussels told they had to have a yes vote, sweeteners were given to the main person opposing, and bingo they got the yes vote. I think you could say "typical left wing tactics." Now of course the big guns are turned on Britain because they dared to use their veto, it will be interesting to see what extremes they will go too, to ensure that our government also fall into line. If you look at the make up of the European Parliament you will see there is a left leaning majority, not by many but nevertheless a majority.
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Slim Hoss 14 December 2011 00:00
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Originally Posted by
I ask, who won ww2!!!!!???
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John (Scouse) Hirons 14 December 2011 04:17
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Michael Potter Think you are looking at the wrong political body Scouse, they are just the pawns in the eu power  game. who are easily manipulated and coerced, or threatened by the eu bureaucrats,  to fall into line, a prime example is when Ireland voted no, they were summoned to Brussels told they had to have a yes vote, sweeteners were given to the main person opposing, and bingo they got the yes vote.  I think you could say "typical left wing tactics." Now of course the big guns are turned on Britain because they dared to use their veto, it will be interesting to see what extremes they will go too, to ensure that our government also fall into line. If you look at the make up of the European Parliament you will see there is a left leaning majority, not by many but nevertheless a majority. Alright Michael, I think its safe to say there will be repercussions from Europe over Camerons walk out but to blame it on a left wing plot is well wide of the mark. The days of reds under the bed died with Senator McCarthy & is not missed. To say its a right wing plot would be equally wrong, it is a power play & most genned up nebbies are pointing at Sarkozy as the prime mover. Im afraid your claim of a left leaning EU parliament doesnt stand up to scrutiny. MEPs sit in seven political blocks inside the Parliament these are; European Peoples Party (EPP) right of center with 265 MEPs Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats (S&D) left of center with 184 MEPs European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) right wing with 56 MEPs Greens/European Free Alliance (GRN/EFA) left wing with 55 MEPs European United Left/Nordic Green Left (GUE) far left with 35 MEPs Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD) far right with 27 MEPs Non-Inscrits (NI) mainly far right 29 MEPs By any way of counting the center/far right has a majority of eighty three.
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Mike Pass 14 December 2011 07:42
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Originally Posted by
Hhhmmm!!!!

Quoting: Gerry Mallott         I ask, who won ww2!!!!!??? Germany, actually. Given the amount of aid flown into Tempelhof in the Luftbrucke airlift and the successive aid with rebuild of the economy and infrastructure, they came out somewhat better than we did! There again, is that not what our pathetic excuses for politicians do?Is that not their raison detre; to look good to the rest of mankind whilst delivering large doses of excrement to the idiots who voted them into power.......hhhmmm????
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Murray Whyte 14 December 2011 10:50
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Mike Pass Germany, actually. Given the amount of aid flown into Tempelhof in the Luftbrucke airlift and the successive aid with rebuild of the economy and infrastructure, they came out somewhat better than we did! There again, is that not what our pathetic excuses for politicians do?Is that not their raison d'etre; to look good to the rest of mankind whilst delivering large doses of excrement to the idiots who voted them into power.......hhhmmm???? The UK kept thousands of German POWs back to aid with the rebuild of the country at the end of the war. Even although the UK had signed the Geneva Convention they kept the POWs for three years for this rebuild aid. No prizes for who got the best deal.
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John Richards 14 December 2011 12:09
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Murray Whyte The UK kept thousands of German POWs back to aid with the rebuild of the country at the end of the war. Even although the UK had signed the Geneva Convention they kept the POWs for three years for this rebuild aid. No prizes for who got the best deal. These men werent exactly behind wire, Murray. I saw a lot of them where I lived. They were out in the community working, and even socializing with the locals. Several applied to stay in the UK and took citizenship. This was at the same time our soldiers were in Germany and Poland clearing up the horrors of the death camps.
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Ros Comain. 14 December 2011 17:19
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Michael, I think it's safe to say there will be repercussions from Europe over Camerons walk out but to blame it on a 'left wing plot' is well wide of the mark. The days of 'reds under the bed' died with Senator McCarthy & is not missed. To say it's a right wing plot would be equally wrong, it is a power play & most genned up nebbies are pointing at Sarkozy as the prime mover. I'm afraid your claim of a left leaning EU parliament doesn't stand up to scrutiny. MEPs sit in seven political blocks inside the Parliament these are; European People's Party (EPP) right of center with 265 MEPs Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats (S&D) left of center with 184 MEPs European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR) right wing with 56 MEPs Greens/European Free Alliance (GRN/EFA) left wing with 55 MEPs European United Left/Nordic Green Left (GUE) far left with 35 MEPs Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD) far right with 27 MEPs Non-Inscrits (NI) mainly far right 29 MEPs By any way of counting the center/far right has a majority of eighty three. A very measured response Scouse. Yes I agree Sarkozy is the prime mover in this particular power play. You forgot in your calculations to include The Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (ALDE) 85 MEPs. I will however let you off on this occasion!!
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Margaret 14 December 2011 17:47
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Originally Posted by
Our Place in Europe???

My dad fought in the 2nd world war,and many years later when i was growing up,he shocked me by by declaring that even though "we" won,he said the germans will be the rulers of europe ....He stood by that statement till he died..... I think he will be proven right one day in the not too distant future....
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Mike Pass 14 December 2011 18:44
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Originally Posted by
Hhhmmm!!!!

Ill make you a prediction then! I have read in this thread about how the Germans are engineering this mess along with the French. I totally refute that. The French have, through their attitude of shove everyone else, we do what we want over a couple of decades, somehow gained a great deal of clout. Something that in the wrong hands can be deadly. French hands is the worst thing that could happen to Europe. All that they can manage is how to surrender, how to urinate in the street and how to smell, badly. They are our oldest enemy and still should be our major focus for target practice for our military. The Germans, on the other hand, seem to have learned their lesson after WWII and the fact that National Socialism nearly caused their eradication. It is easily forgotten that they are one of our oldest friends. Merkel is being railroaded by the Sarkozy and time will show that. I have little doubt that this new union will collapse relatively quickly and when it does watch how quickly Merkel comes a courtin the current pariah of Europe. I have no time for Cameron or any other UK politician, as you well know. However, even he can do something right on occasion. There will also be a trickle of minor members to our side of the fence as time goes on. The French will prove out the continuing fact that they could not organise a p*ss up in a brewery. Sarkozy may be flying high in his own little world right now but lets see what happens when the Eurozone nations tell him where to shove his Frog superstate.......................cos its gonna happen...guaranteed.......
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Margaret 14 December 2011 20:31
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Originally Posted by
Our Place in Europe???

Mike i agree with you to a certain extent,but i am maybe talking about even further in the future,and that the french will eventually be the same as the rest of europe! Germany being our old friend wont mean a thing they will get what they want and that is to be the rulers of europe,and that will be without a shot being fired!!!
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Terry Carey 14 December 2011 23:05
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Originally Posted by
Our place in Europe???

I see the backsliding has started already in a small way. Angela Merkel is being quoted as saying that there is still a place for the UK in Europe. Shes savvy enough to know what I said earlier and that is that they would not like to lose our contributions. Once that filters through the bonedomes of some of the other National leaders they will start to retrench their positions also. Again if, as, and when the other countries realise that if we go out of the EU and prosper, which we have every chance of doing, they might also consider doing the same. The main problem is still that they havent and seemingly wont kick Greece out when every one with any sense realises that that would be a wise course of action. Pity so few of the leaders have any sense.. TC.
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Nobby 15 December 2011 01:16
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Originally Posted by
I think the UK is a very long way away from becoming the North Korea of Europe, and there are already mutterings among that group of 27 about what they see as the injustice of being ruled financially from Brussels or Frankfurt. It cant be assumed that they are all happily and will sign their heritage away.
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Steve Greenwood 16 December 2011 11:43
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: Colin Hall I think the UK is a very long way away from becoming the North Korea of Europe, and there are already mutterings among that group of 27 about what they see as the injustice of being ruled financially from Brussels or Frankfurt. It can't be assumed that they are all happily and will sign their heritage away. [/QUOTE After yesterday's news about Hungary and the Czech Republic having said they would not sign up to any agreement that interfered with their ability to set their own taxation it would seem you could be right, Colin. The Krauts will have to tread very carefully if the want to have fiscal domination of Europe. They tried force twice in the last century and failed to gain domination of Europe so maybe this is the back door to that aim.  Should we ever see the rise of our heel-clicking 'allies'again???? And No, I dont like or trust the Krauts!! Last edited by Steve Greenwood
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Mike Pass 16 December 2011 11:51
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Originally Posted by
Hhhmmm!!!!

For someone who lives in Europe (even if it is the cesspit of France) you are remarkably naive as regards who is trying to take the reins, Steve. I only hope that the rest of Europe is a bit more alert!!!!!!!
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Bomber 16 December 2011 12:13
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Originally Posted by
Hi Steve, our opinions are obviously based upon our experiences, when I was stationed at 11MSU Grovelly Wood, being a sub unit of Chilmark there were only 20 of us airmen there but we had over 30 German POWs, they had the freedom of the camp but were not allowed up into the bomb dump obviously. However they used to clean our nissen huts, bed spaces, make up our beds, light the fire in the stove and make sure that there was enough wood for the night. They used to cook our meals and serve us, we never had to wash our irons and take them back to the billet, they used to take care of everything. I still have photo frames made out of aircraft canopies by them, and at Christmas we had the most marvelous meal that I ever had in the RAF. What a disapoinment when a few of us were posted. No those lads were just like us bloody good friends. Bye the way our C.O. was Flt/lt GASH. all the RAF bods will know what that means.
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Steve Greenwood 16 December 2011 12:30
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Originally Posted by
I knew that my post would get you going, Mike. You are obviously a Kraut lover!! Without doubt, Germany have the strongest economy in Europe. The populace are becoming increasingly alarmed at the bail-outs given to Greece, Ireland et al and they want the Euro to succeed at almost any cost other than to themselves. We will have to wait and see what Merkles next move will be. You can bet it wont be to the U.K.s benefit. My dislike of Germany stems from two wars in the last century when many of our people were killed by them. France and Britain were allies then and are still so today, in spite of little differences. I dont easily forgive or forget!!
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John (Scouse) Hirons 16 December 2011 13:32
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Steve Greenwood I knew that my post would get you going, Mike. You are obviously a Kraut lover!! Without doubt, Germany have the strongest economy in Europe. The populace are becoming increasingly alarmed at the bail-outs given to Greece, Ireland et al and they want the Euro to succeed at almost any cost other than to themselves. We will have to wait and see what Merkle's next move will be. You can bet it won't be to the U.K.s benefit. My dislike of Germany stems from two wars in the last century when many of our people were killed by them. France and Britain were allies then and are still so today, in spite of little differences. I don't easily forgive or forget!! Alright Steve, You are overlooking the Vichy troops that fought against us both in Europe & North Africa, then there was the way the Milice treated our escaping servicemen before handing them over to the Germans, if they hadnt killed them first, after the fall of France (the 1940s one not all the others). France has not proved to be a good friend since we won their country back for them, for instance they sold Argentina Exercet missiles & supplied French experts to show them how to use them even after we went South to liberate the Falklands. They have fought us on the trade front burning our sheep alive for example. Every French Presidents Since De Gaulle has done what ever they could to damage the UK politically, De Gaulles "non". Not even the Frogs dont like the Frogs, to quote General De Gaulle..."I have tried to lift France out of the mud. But she will return to her errors and vomitings. I cannot prevent the French from being French." nuff said.
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Steve Greenwood 16 December 2011 13:54
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Originally Posted by
Hi, Scouse. Im not going to get into a tit-for-tat argument about the French v The British and I am fully aware of the Vichy French traitors and the the disgusting episode of the lambs. Even the vast majority of the French were disgusted!! We are into a new era of cooperation with the French as seen by the Libyan No Fly zone and, contrary to many views, Cameron and Sarkozy get on very well. The current spate will soon be past history.
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Mike Pass 16 December 2011 14:42
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Originally Posted by
Hhhmmm!!!!

You seem to getting somewhat confused in your argument, Steve. How would you be avoiding an argument about French v British. The points recently made concern France and Germany....!!!!!!! Also, all you have to go on regarding your views (which you are, of course entitled to) is that which history has taught you. For example, the Germans as a nation did not kill all of those people, neither did they commit the atrocities of the Holocaust. They were done by a regime which in many parts of of Germany was despised by the population. The Austrian people positively hated the NS culture, Herr Hitler and his inner circle even more. Are you aware that there was a German Resistance movement which committed acts of sabotage against the regime in the homeland???? Its very easy to categorize when in possession of very little information. In that respect I must also say that not ALL the French population during the 40s were cowardly filth. My late father in law fought alongside the Maquis and the urban French Resistance. Maybe there were not many of them but they were the genuine Frenchmen who should still be worshipped by the rest of France today. Not vilified as they were by the collaborating cowardly scum. Your opinion of Germans is significantly flawed and in todays world....ridiculous. However, it is your opinion and good luck with that! I would, however, suggest that you take a little time out to learn about Germans and Germany. I can guarantee you a shock.
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Nobby 16 December 2011 15:10
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Originally Posted by
In recent years, the German film industry has got around to making some very good films about their own past, one of which was "The White Rose"which  was a German resistance group whose members were imprisoned and executed during Hitler's reign for creating and distributing anti-Nazi leaflets. Some of them, including the ring leader, a female student name of Sophie Scholl, were executed by guillotine! However, to return to the present, if I were Cameron I would call a General Election soonest! Labour is in disarray with Liliband , and from what I read Cleggys lot would be totally eliminated. Last edited by Colin Hall
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Mike Pass 16 December 2011 15:16
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Originally Posted by
Hhhmm!!!

Hhhmmm!!!! Guillotine. Theres collaboration for you then........
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