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Merging of Regiments

{{forumThread.upVotes}} Created by Rita Gemmell 7 June 2005 08:08 9254 views Link  
Rita Gemmell 7 June 2005 08:08
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Originally Posted by
Merging of Regiments

After a long and sometimes bitter campaign, the Ministry of Defence decided last year to merge five of Scotlands six infantry regiments into a single unit and scrap the sixth. Under the Freedom of Information Act, The Scotsman has obtained letters sent from serving members of the Scottish Division to defence ministers in the run-up to their incendiary announcement in December. Despite repeated statements from defence ministers in Parliament that many serving soldiers endorse the army reform, the MoD has been unable to provide a single letter of support. Instead, the published letters, without exception, condemn the MoDs plans. Several accuse ministers of "disloyalty" to the army. The frank sentiments expressed in the letters are in stark contrast with the public statements ministers made about the feelings of the army. See below for full article. http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=618372005
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 7 June 2005 11:18
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Originally Posted by
Merging of Regiments

Rita,I too lostmy regiment in the systematic carve up.Though we can still include our county name we were three regiments and now only one.My Regiment is now called 1st Bn Mercian (Cheshire)Regt.We were called the 1st Bn 22nd Cheshire Regiment. I am reliably infomed that though regiments have lost thier id the total army personel figure is still the same. Our Regimental Association Branches will still be known as Cheshire Regimental association as Im sure the lostScottish Regiments will do also. Gone has the day when we had pride in our County Regiment as a singular unit,though we still have pride in our association history. Whose soapbox did I borrow?
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Rocky 7 June 2005 13:07
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Originally Posted by
Surely this latest, merger of regiments, thus dispensing with hundreds of years of tradition and regimental loyalty ,is part of Blair and his bunch of crypto communists aim to form a peoples army. Just another nail in the coffin of British culture, tradition and history ! Rocky
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Cave Adsum 7 June 2005 17:07
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Originally Posted by
Merging of Regiments

Agree with you Rocky, just wondering, any truth in the rumour that the RAF is to be merged with the RN flyboys to form a BFC - Blairs Flying Circus?
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Rocky 7 June 2005 17:08
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Originally Posted by
Just had a brilliant thought !. . . Why not form The Asylum Seekers Light Infantry and introduce conscription for all Asylum Seekers. The country would be half empty by next weekend ! Rocky
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Make Peace - Kill Doves 7 June 2005 18:12
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Originally Posted by
A run the bank or bank on a run?

[QUOTE]Quoting: lovell [I]Just had a brilliant thought !. . . Why not form 'The Asylum Seekers Light Infantry' and introduce conscription for all Asylum Seekers. The country would be half empty by next weekend ! Rocky Cost prohibitive Philip, as it would cost us a fortune in boots! The Israelis showed that they run faster without them!
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None 7 June 2005 20:23
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Originally Posted by
Merging / Naming Of Regiments

We in the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Association have mounted a petition to "Save The Name" of our Regiment. Our Regiment is, along with the Cheshires and Staffords, to form the Mercian Regiment. Our title will be : - 2nd Bn The Mercian Regiment (Worcesters and Foresters) We are asking that the name be portrayed the same as the Scottish regiments with the antecedent name at the fore so the title would be : - The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters (2nd Bn The Mercian Regiment) I have written to Geoff Hoon, Tony Blair and Adam Ingram regarding this and received typical political replies from Mr Hoon and Mr Ingram. I am now writing to John Reid. You can see our on line petition at www.wfr.org.uk then follow the link to the Association Page. We also have a "paper" version in circulation. If you wish for further information please do not hesitate to contact me. The KOSB have taken court action over the proposal for their amalgamation with the Royal Scots! They have had one hearing, the second is due in August.
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Rita Gemmell 7 June 2005 21:11
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Originally Posted by
I am heartened to hear that these many loyal regiments are fighting back against stupid policies that in the long run will probably not work. Why the rush to change regiments that have served with honour for a hundred years or more.
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Make Peace - Kill Doves 8 June 2005 03:08
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Originally Posted by
I can think of just one reason for the government wishing to remove the identity from our regiments, and it's that they intend to reduce our forces to a strength where a Brigadier would be sufficient to be chief of staff - we don't need a rank higher than Lt General at the present strength. They're aware of the affection in which our regiments are held, and to remove their identities would make it easier to reduce their numbers, or remove a battalion altogether. Every time they cut back they come out with the same pathetic reason - 'To make the forces more specialised, and better equipped' - and we all now know that it means they're not going to spend any more so they cut back instead. How will they be able to 'brown-nose' the American president in the event of a war some time in the future, because we'll not be able to be much of a contributor? I could be wrong, but I feel very suspicious, especially as I've not, as yet, heard of a logical reason for these amalgamations. Perhaps one of you ladies and gents could enlighten me?
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Rocky 8 June 2005 11:12
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Originally Posted by
BYRON I have a nasty feeling that when New Labour came to power, they had a hidden agenda, which was to change, for ever, our greatly loved Nation into a New Socialist society. To achieve this aim they would have to reduce the power of the Queen and House of Lords and gradually erode our traditions and culture. They have, already, partly achieved this by allowing virtually unlimited immigration and by filling the Lords with Tonys cronies. They are intent on destroying the Green Belt by building estates all over it and by encouraging extreme forms of political correctness they have undermined our religion, the police force and are now starting on the armed services. When they have finally destroyed everything, including our self respect as a nation, they will take us into Europe and we will become part of a huge Socialist Federal State, with no control over our own country. Blair may be, to some, the acceptable face of New Labour but just look at his Ministers, most of whom have been card carrying members of the Communist Party..... Leopards dont change their spots !
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Bish 8 June 2005 13:26
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Originally Posted by
Phew !

Byron, Phil. If I ever need someone to stand in my corner Ill ask you two guys. You should start a lobbyist group and pester the powers that be until some answers are forthcoming. I too can see no logical reasoning on this movement other than what you state. Uncomfortable to think about isnt it?
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None 8 June 2005 13:38
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Byron, If you want an interesting read, check out the Examination Of Witness questions 620-639 on the Parliament website. Defence Select Committee) Their questions to Mr Hoon and General Jackson were in some cases a carbon copy of what I asked in my letters! Interesting to note the committee received the same "waffle" as I. The Defence Select Committee indicated they were NOT in favour of the reduction to Infantry Battalions. Why, when the American and Australian forces are increasing their Infantry we are reducing ours? This is not just about the Infantry, it is involves the other "teeth arms", Armoured and Artillery units. Also, let us not forget the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force. They have been hit just as hard by the changes. Perhaps if more of our present serving politicians had served in the forces we would have a more balanced approach to changes.
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Bish 8 June 2005 13:48
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Originally Posted by
merger

Does anybody think that these proposed mergers are the start of a process to eliminate Regimental and Corp identity and eventually combine all three Services into one Defence Corp.. Am I being too socialist?
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None 8 June 2005 13:51
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Forgot to mention in my previous mail the fact that the title of Sherwood Foresters can be traced back to the battle of Agincourt in which a company of bowmen from Nottingham took part. Their tile was "The Sherwood Foresters". Wonder if any other Regiment can trace their name back as far as this? Thanks Mr Blair, Mr Hoon and General Jackson, another proud Regimental name destined for the history books!
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None 8 June 2005 14:06
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Alan, You could well be correct. The Canadians have done something similar. Mind you, General Jackson has stated that we are NOT going towards a "Corp Of Infantry". He says, and I quote ; "There is no question of a corps of infantry, absolutely none, that is not the way to go in my view. The regimental system has served the British Army extremely well down the hundreds of years. The regimental system is the absolute bedrock to us, what we call part of the moral component, part of that heart side I was talking about". Interesting statement dont you think, especially when he is scrapping infantry regiments who have given hundreds of years of loyal service, and forming new ones? I obtained quote this from the MoD Future Army Structure.
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Bish 8 June 2005 15:20
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Alan, I live in Canada and seeing the abysmal state of the Armed Forces here was what prompted me to that line of thinking. The Canadian Armed Forces (remember who liberated Holland) are grossly underfunded and very ill equipped. When one airplane is aloft, the other half of the air force is grounded.
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None 8 June 2005 15:51
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Alan, I have often logged onto the website of the Grey and Simcoe Foresters, the affiliated regiment to the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters (WFR). I am sometimes left "bemused" by some of the comments on the site. If half of what I read is correct it does seem like the Canadian forces have some problems, underfunding being one of them. Havent the military always been underfunded and asked to operate on a shoestring? When I wrote to Mr Hoon I made the point that it useless spending money on Surveillance Drones when there will be insufficient troops on the ground to react to the information provided. He actually agreed that "boots on the ground" are important. Why then reduce them? We are overstretched as it is. If people remember some year ago part of the Infantry was "merged" into large regiments thus forming the following:- Royal Regiment Of Fusiliers Royal Green Jackets Light Infantry Royal Anglian Regiment Queens Regiment They all became know by the number of their battalion ie 1RRF etc, losing their antecedent names. To the best of my knowledge all of these had 3 battalions, now they have 2. The 3rd battalion having disappeared! Is this then also the plan for the "new" merged regiments? Get rid of the links with their Counties and it is easier to disband regiments. Also makes it easier to form part of a European Army if we are all numbered and not named. I am beginning to get very cynical.
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Vic 20 June 2005 20:28
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Originally Posted by
Regimental Losses

I am very dismayed and heartfelt to read all the comments on the disbandment, amalgamation and loss of many British Army Regiments. I served for 12 years a lot less than most 8 spent in the RAPC [now gone]. During those years I spent many happy times with a number of regiments and battalions. One of the best with 5 RTR, I was disbanded 7th Dec 1969. Why should I a mere 'Corps Attached" remember this. It's part of our history, being British, being English, being Scots. But after WW1, did we keep all the battalions raised, no we didn't need them. Again after WW2 did we keep the Regiments, no we didn't need them. Now according to President [I'm God] Blair, we're at peace. Oh sorry except for the odd terrorist and the odd country that doesn't toe the line of the Blair/Bush coalition vision of the world. Sorry I'm not a Blairite. the sooner this jumped up barrister [And they all rip us off anyway, barristers that is] is put in his place the better. He is a public civil servant. A little more 'Public' A little more 'Civil' A little more 'Servant' - Excuse me, as I step down from my soap box, I get carried away - "If" we don't need these units do it with dignity, but I feel we need them desperately. A recent report says that the forces are stretched to nearly breaking point. There "unfortunately" is a shortage of funds - Too much is being spent on the "Skivers Battalions" of Asylum Seekers and Social Security, not to mention "The Outreach Workers & Managers & PC Brigade" Who's fault ? MINE & YOUR's, or those who don't go to the election booth or stand in general & local elections to oust these pests You can grumble all you may in this chat room but it's "Boots on the ground" that count. This country has a history of forgetting Tommy when the fighting is over. Can we not change that ? ?
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None 20 June 2005 21:00
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Vic, I agree with your comments! I mentioned in one of my letters to the "powers that be" the very point about the reduction of our forces following various conflicts. Yet here we go once again and with the requirement for "boots on the ground" more pronounced than ever! Even Geoff Hoon agreed with me that "boots on the ground" are important! Where is the logic in reducing Infantry Battalions when we are having to use personnel from Artillery units to carry out Infantry tasks in Iraq? (Memories of Northern Ireland spring to mind). I agree that modernisation is often necessary but why also decimate the names of our Regiments. As I have said in previous entries it is not only the Infantry (You will guess that I am ex Infantry) that is affected by these changes. It is ALL our forces. It would appear that we cannot alter the "Mergers" of the Infantry but we can at least try to save the names of our Regiments. That is why we of the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regimental Association have mounted a petition to "SAVE THE NAME". (A bit of promoting the cause now follows):- We need ALL the support we can muster to make the necessary impact on our "Leaders" to save the name so if you wish to help log on to : - www.wfr.org.uk and follow the link to the WFR Association, there you will find an online petition. Or you could contact me and I will send you a "paper version" along with a stamped addressed envelope for its return. Well, we have been told it is now "The Listening Government"!
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Vic 20 June 2005 22:37
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Glad to see someone is trying to do something, but how about an email. You send an email to 10 of your friends who will supoort your cause, each copied to Geof Hoon & Boy Blair They then send emails to 10 of their friends, again each copied to Geof Hoon and boy blair and so on and so on. 10,000 emails later perhaps theyll get the message,
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None 20 June 2005 23:20
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Vic, Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. I have mentioned on the WFR site about e-mailing Tony Blair and local MPs etc. Not certain how much response it gained though. I e-mailed Tony Blair, no reply. Perhaps he never even set eyes on it? I reckon their thinking is that if they ignore us we will go away! Big mistake!! I believe one of the problem with getting people to support petitions etc is that the are of the opinion that they will have no effect, and perhaps they might have a point, but I cannot just sit and do nothing. At least we can say that we tried! We have at present about 2000 signatures and have received nothing but support from the general public. My local Royal British Legion was a very productive recruiting venue. Would welcome support from anyone who feels they would like to help.
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Al/Big Al/ Phil 20 June 2005 23:46
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Originally Posted by
Merging

Havent all previous Lab Gov. cut down on the Armed Forces. By getting rid of the famous REGIMENTS it paves the way to getting rid of all our Armed Forces leaving this Country Defenceless. We will then have to9 rely on the EU defence force. This paveing the way to a U.S.E. Napolean couldnt do it Hitl*r couldnt do it but mr blair can.
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K 21 June 2005 00:23
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Originally Posted by
Yogi you will be interested to know that included in the latest mergers is the idea that D&Ds will becomeThe First Battalion The Light Infantry wearing a green beret but retaining your own cap badge the latter not having been decided yet.What gives these beaurocrats the right to wipe out hundreds of years of regimental history.What happens to the colours a regiment can only have one set D&Ds loyal to theirs and L.I. loyal to theirs Bliddy civvies
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None 21 June 2005 08:43
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

The latest saga in this whole unhappy episode is that the RGBW and D&Ds are now to be given an "interim" title. This title is to be used until they officially join the LI. They are to be known respectively as:- RGBW LI and D&D LI This information is contained in a letter written by General Jackson and can be seen on the Glosters (RGBW) Asociation website. One would expect once they are merged they will lose these titles and adopt the title of LI. To quote a phrase from Laurel and Hardy : - Another fine mess they have got us into!
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None 21 June 2005 08:47
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Kevin, Sorry, forgot to mention cap badges. When I queried this I was informed the retention of Regimental Cap Badges was not an option. I think you will find that the badge the RGBW is to retain is the famous BACK BADGE of the Glosters. I believe that following a campaign by their Association backed by supporters of the RGBW (Glosters) they have may have managed to retain this badge.
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K 21 June 2005 23:50
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Originally Posted by
Thanks Alan I can only imagine how longer serving soldiers must feel I know how I feel it was difficult when 3 battalions of the same regiment became two.And they had the same history. It will be an incredible test of leadership to amalgamate two divisions. Getting back to Laurel and Hardy do you think this lot shift pianos?
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Allan Scott 28 June 2005 11:50
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: PHILLIPS Haven't all previous Lab Gov. cut down on the Armed Forces. By getting rid of the famous REGIMENTS it paves the way to getting rid of all our Armed Forces leaving this Country Defenceless.   Actually, if you look back over the decades, the Tories have a far worse record for cutting back on our forces. It is a total myth that the Tories are somehow more supportive to the military than Labour.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 29 June 2005 10:25
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Originally Posted by
Save The Name

Alan....As an ex Cheshire Regiment soldier 58-64 I remember when three regiments merged to form the Mercian Brigade.We lost our cap badge but adopted the Mercian Brigade badge.We still wore the oak leaf collar dogs and the Cheshire shoulder flash. Now many years later as you say we are each to lose our Regimental id.Though it hurts many of us to lose that hallowed title we cannot change the situation as it is,The only thing we can shout about is the loss of our County Regiments name.It is only the name we lose and not the man power as the numbers of soldiers will not be reduced.
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None 29 June 2005 16:52
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Gordon, As you will have noted from my earlier notes it is the name of the Regiment (WFR)I am trying to save. In my letter to John Reid I made it clear that the names of the Cheshires and Staffords should also be saved! I well remember the change to the Mercian Brigade badge, the double headed eagle. Perhaps this will be the Cap Badge once again? As you said we retained our own collar badges, wonder if this will happen again when we merge? It was interesting to note that one of the reasons given by General Jackson and the MoD for the mergers was to offer soldiers a more structured career path and variation. When you delve deeper it seems that this will be dedicated to the few, not the many! Incidentally, am still waiting for a reply from John Reid to my letter of 8 June.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 30 June 2005 10:53
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Originally Posted by
Alan

Ref the new Regimentalcap badge.I have been reliably informed tht it will be a slightly larger double headed shite hawkwith the posibility of a crown added. Keep the flag flying mate.
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None 30 June 2005 11:02
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Gordon, Thanks for the info about the badge. You have confirmed my worst thoughts! I expect the powers that be think by putting a crown on it it will make it more acceptable. I will be at the annual Sherwood Forsters and WFR pilgimage at Crich, Derbyshire this Sunday. I will be seeing numerous "influential" people and will take them to task.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 30 June 2005 13:20
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Originally Posted by
Alan

What a pity its this Sunday I would dearly have loved to join you (as an ex Cheshire) Please pass on our greatings from the Stockport branch of the CRA.
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Dunners/Tic 30 June 2005 13:53
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Originally Posted by
Its not just the infantry regiments they will be getting rid of guys.Hubby was at the Royal Tank Regiment reunion in April.Britain will no longer have a tank regiment either shortly.Thay will become ,forgive me if I dont get this quite right :the chemical,nuclear and biological regiment.Will they keep the cap badges ? No chance
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Chippy 30 June 2005 14:58
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Originally Posted by
Merging of Regiments...

The reason for the contraction and demolition of Regiments, Corps, and the Reduction in the three Services generally, is not to save money... Every Goverment has it's own sacred cows and to feed their proclivities for whatever is their own S/C's they need to spend ever increasing amounts of our money on them, to the detriment of the armed forces...In this they disregard their first duty, which is the protection of the nations people... The present goverment is idealogically tuned to destroying our biggest asset which is our Loyalty to the Nation State and which is fostered and strengthened in the armed forces...The only loyalty they demand is loyalty to their ideaology and eventually the Presidium which will be set up and based in Brussells...This indoctrinated loyalty will supersede all other loyalties...They are well on their way, with five more years in which to soften us up...Trev. Last edited by Trevor Chapman
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Ginger 30 June 2005 20:01
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Originally Posted by
merging.

hello all. i am not really a firebrand but i can see in this great country of ours in 15 to30 years time with all the differing factions a bloodbath of a revolution.how can any government stop it with the few platoons we have left they will not be able to deal with a single large city.
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None 30 June 2005 20:04
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Lyne, You are quite right, the Armoured Corps is being reduced as is the Artillery. Let us hope the old saying of "History repeats itself" does not come to fruition. 1914, 1939, 1950 and the numerous conflicts since spring to mind. Gordon, Thanks for your message from the Stockport Branch. It would be a nice touch if you went on the WFR Association website and left a note on the guest book. I will email my colleagues and pass on your best wishes. Pity about Crich this Sunday, would have been nice to have met you.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 30 June 2005 23:19
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Originally Posted by
wfrs website

Alan can you give me the woofers website addy please and I will visit.Sadly my branch doesnt have one yet.
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None 1 July 2005 09:21
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Gordon, If you log onto www.wfr.org.uk then follow the link on the search page to the WFR Association you should find the site. You may well see a note on the WFR address saying "SAVE THE NAME" sign the petition, that is the site you want. Any problems let me know.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 1 July 2005 11:18
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Originally Posted by
alan

Done it!Good luck.
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None 3 July 2005 10:43
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Gordon, Thanks for your support. Received from the WFR Association webmaster your completed petition form.
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None 14 July 2005 22:58
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Received a reply from the MoD (NOT Mr Reid) perhaps that would be expecting too much. Do not wish to comment on the reply as it would get me banned from this site! They must think we are of low intelligence out here! Why do they not answer a question? Visit www.wfr.org.uk to see a quote from their letter. Will say no more!
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 14 July 2005 23:18
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Originally Posted by
Alan

Dont know why but I could only access you home page.However we ex Cheshires were assured that the Cheshire Regt would become the 1st Btn Mercian (Cheshire)regiment. Good luck anyway with your campaign and keep me informed of any social activities as your only an hours drive from me.
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None 17 July 2005 16:39
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Gordon, In reply to your note regarding the name of the Cheshires after the merger. It is to be : - 1st Bn The Mercian Regiment (Cheshires) I have checked the WFR web site and have been able to access it without any problem. Perhaps a "glich" when you tried? I have now written to Margaret Beckett, the local MP for Derby, asking her to raise my questions with Mr Reid.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 17 July 2005 21:13
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Originally Posted by
Alan

Thanks and good luck,I will try accessing your website again.
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None 5 September 2005 11:00
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

The fight continues! Yet again I wrote to Mr Reid, this time the reply came from Lord Drayson, the Duty Minister. (Seems like everyone else was away on their hols). Lord Drayson is the Minister for Procurement so I have no idea what knowledge he would have regarding the mergers etc. Anyway, surprise, surprise, the letter just said the same as all the others. So, it looks like it is pen to paper time again. Why cant they answer a question? It looks like our Scottish colleagues have won a couple more victories. They will be retaining the Hackle and decision that all regiments should wear the Kilt has been changed. Trews may be worn by those whos dress it it at present. Good luck to them! It is seen however by some of those in Scotland that the mergers are a direct assault on the Scottish Regiments by the English. The English and Welsh Regiments have had the same imposed on them and WE CANNOT EVEN KEEP OUR NAME! Tony Blair,John Reid, Adam Ingram,George Brown, what links do they have to Scotland? These, along with Geoff Hoon and General Jackson are amongst those who made the decision to cut the forces. Final point, why is it that the Royal Artillery and the Scots Dragoon Guards are being used in the Infantry role in Iraq? Think I will have to add this query to my letter! Sorry for going on so long.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 5 September 2005 15:03
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Originally Posted by
alan

You wont get a straight answer because hes a politician. Good luck with your task.
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None 5 September 2005 15:24
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Originally Posted by
Mergers

Gordon, Thanks for your words of wisdom. Silly me, I must stop being so naive and trusting. Alan
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None 19 November 2005 11:48
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Originally Posted by
Merging of Regiments

The battle continues with me badgering the politicians and MoD with letters questioning their decisions! The replies I have received are all of the same ilk! I think they now have a standard reply for Alan Derbyshire? The online petition is still open :-www.wfr.org.uk All support is greatly appreciated. It appears the Colonels of the "Mercian Regiment" along with the Welsh Regiments did submit requests for the names to be at the fore of the title. (As per the Scottish Regiments). These request were rejected! Why am I not surprised?
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Chippy 19 November 2005 12:11
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Alan Derbyshire Received a reply from the MoD (NOT Mr Reid) perhaps that would be expecting too much. Do not wish to comment on the reply as it would get me banned from this site! They must think we are of low intelligence out here! Why do they not answer a question? Visit www.wfr.org.uk  to see a quote from their letter. Will say no more! ...Alan... We ARE of low intelligence as far as they are concerned...We are the Proletariat..The lowest class in their Socialist Society...We are there just for their convenience...And they are probably right...We must be of low intelligence to allow them to sh!t on us the way they do...Trev. This attachment concerns the Canadian Navy... But could well be our Navy before they have done with us...Trev.
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Murray Whyte 19 November 2005 14:13
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Originally Posted by
It really heartens me to see a topic like this raised again. I know that there is some opposition to these plans from a few of the English Regiment affected. What I dont know is if they are fighting the decision by getting up petitions etc. The Save the Scottish Regiments Campaign team hope to present a petition to No 10 on St Andrews Day (30th November). If this petition makes the Government think again about the mergers or disbandments of the Scottish Regiments then it would stand to reason that they would think again about the English Regiments. If anyone would like to help then you can sign the petition online at: http://www.petitiononline.com/P2P2005/petition.html Hope that you do. Murray
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