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{{forumThread.upVotes}} Created by Sparky 24 March 2011 22:22 5884 views Link  
Sparky 24 March 2011 22:22
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Originally Posted by
JAPAN

An article in my paper yesterday asked the question is it time to forgive and forget the Japanese atrocities done in WW2 For myself i just do'nt know but my neighbor was on the Burma railway i have known him for many years and has never said one word about it and gets very agitated when its brought up so i can only imagine what he went through
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Pamela Forbes 24 March 2011 23:28
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Originally Posted by
It is understandable that those men ( and women) who suffered at the hands of the Japanese during WW2 feel the way they do. My favourite uncle, a wonderful, kind and gentle man, fought in Burma and was taken prisoner. He never spoke about it but I have no doubt that the horrors he saw stayed with him all his life. However, it would be very wrong to keep blaming the young Japanese of today for the things committed 60 years ago. They are no more to blame than the young Germans of today are responsible for the death camps of Adolph Hitler. Apart from a few fanatics, and every nation has them, there is a very different mindset among the young of these countries than that which existed during WW2. So, although we should never forget, it is time to stop bringing it up with the present generation of Japan (and Germany).
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Nigel Osborn 25 March 2011 00:09
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Originally Posted by
In 1943 my Mother & I had the misfortune to be captured by the Japanese near Lumding, India. She helped run the first aid hospital & I was about 6 years old. Due to no power, the Japanese troops made me carry water buckets from the creek. As I spilt most of it, a guard bayoneted me in the back. Due to a shortage of medicine which was only allowed to be used on their troops, my wound became very infected. Fortunately the Chindits turned up & my Mother & I, both of us had malaria as well, went back to Calcutta to recover. Recently the MOD offered money to civilian POW, so I applied. They needed a letter from our doctor who would now be about 130 years old, a letter from my Father who died in 1962, some paperwork from the Japanese colonel & an address of the camp. I pointed that as a very sick 6 year old, I hadnt thought of getting statements from all these people, so MOD was sorry but glad I recovered! I forgot about this period until my sons asked me about some old photos some 15 years ago. Suddenly all this came back to me & I found I could never trust the Japs again or turn my back on one. Strangely I now often have flash backs when asleep. I cant imagine how the troops could forgive the Japs as they really had a terrible time. Now of course we all get on well with them. Two of my sons had a lovely skiing holiday there & fortunately left 2 days before the earthquake.
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Nobby 25 March 2011 00:49
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Originally Posted by
My first posting to Singapore was 1966, and I was at RAF Tengah, which is not far from the Kranji Military Cemetery.Whenever I felt like I'd had a bad day, or just wanted a bit of quiet time, I used to drive up there and walk among those young fellas, and quite a few women, British and Australian nurses. I have a good library of books about Singapore and the Japaneses occupation, including one written by the Japanese but translated.  The Japanese changed the name of Singapore. I've also been to the Kanchanaburi Cemetery, where most of the River Kwai and railway dead are buried. There's a helluva lot of dust gets in your eyes when you walk around that one, I tell you. On my second tour in Singapore, 1974-76, I had a MQ at the former RN Naval Base, in a house built for senior officers before the war, but occupied by the Japanese also. One Of those houses was used for the final reunion scene in that excellent British TV series of a few years ago. There have been a few generations of Japanese since WW2, and I don't believe the sins of the fathers are carried through.  I know a number of people who have had Japanese students stay with them, even my son when they had a spare room, and I have found them to be delightfully polite with manners a few of our own could well adopt. The wartime generation of Japanese were brought up in an entirely different world to today, so I think it's time we all moved on. Last edited by Colin Hall
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Nobby 25 March 2011 00:56
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Originally Posted by
Our house in Kenya Crescent, near the former RN Naval Base. There were a number of these, and when I watched the episode of the TV show I recognised it immediately.
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Spud 25 March 2011 01:09
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Originally Posted by
An interesting topic. An uncle of my ex wife was a Japanese POW and despised them until the day he died. That was then, this is now, times and attitudes have changed. One difference between the Germans and Japanese is that the Germans have gone some way to admitting their WW2 atrocities. Meanwhile the Japanese have rewritten history books for their schools, toning down their atrocities. Not so well known is that NZ came close to being invaded during WW2. Japanese submarines got into Auckland harbour and various other coastal spots around the country. A runway near Dunsandel, approx 30 Km south west of ChCh was constructed for B17 bombers in case the North Island was overun. The fuel dumps are still there, although used as a different type of dump now, the steel liners have been removed, and runways overgrown. A tunnel was dug into Cashmere Hill, ChCh and was going to be the allied HQ. Fuel dumps were built in Lyttelton for warships. Maps of NZ were printed in Japanese for their invasion plans. But Fatman and Little Boy helped to prevent it. History lesson over.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 March 2011 03:20
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Originally Posted by
Before the lets forgive & forget sentiment takes hold I suggest everyone should read The Knights Of Bushido by Lord Russell Of Liverpool, in it he describes the Jap treatment of POWs in a none sensational manner. I would also recommend The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang. The one thing these books have in common is that in 2007 the Jap Liberal Democratic Party declared that all the actions detailed in these books were fabrications made for political ends. Unlike the Germans the Japonese refuse to acknowlage their crimes in fact they defend all the actions taken by the Imperial Japanese Army.
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Roy Sloan 25 March 2011 09:09
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Originally Posted by
Japan

Hi John, I read Knights of the Bushido on the recommendation of my elder brother. The atrocities committed were horrendous. Maybe you will be able to tell me when it was written as I seem to remember reading it as a youngster. Kind Regards Roy.
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Geordie 25 March 2011 10:14
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Originally Posted by
Come on guys, we cant give Japan all the Brownie points, cos no ones better than us Brits, America and Israel when it comes down to past and present atrocities. War crimes are still being committed, what a shame that its mainly the coloured people who get all the credit and publicity for these actions. Its such a pity that so much has been airbrushed from our history books. This is the Just Joshing thread isnt it !!!
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 March 2011 14:33
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter Come on guys, we can't give Japan all the Brownie points, cos no one's better than us Brits, America and Israel when it comes down to past and present atrocities. War crimes are still being committed, what a shame that it's mainly the coloured people who get all the credit and publicity for these actions. It's such a pity that so much has been airbrushed from our history books. This is the Just Joshing thread isn't it !!! Alright Owen, Before you carry on your usual kick against Israel & the west read those books (Ill give you a list of some others) your lack of knowlage of the subject is showing.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 March 2011 14:44
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Roy Sloan Hi John, I read Knights of the Bushido on the recommendation of my elder brother. The atrocities committed were horrendous. Maybe you will be able to tell me when it was written as I seem to remember reading it as a youngster. Kind Regards Roy. Alright Roy, The copy Ive got was published in 1954, I bought it in 1963/64. The things the sons of Nippon did in WW2 & during their invasion of China, to my mind, puts them in a sub catagory of humanity.
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Roy Sloan 25 March 2011 15:09
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Originally Posted by
Japan

Many thanks John, it would be in the late 50s I read it, just before joining the mob. Regards Roy.
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Geordie 25 March 2011 16:45
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Owen, Before you carry on your usual kick against Israel & the west read those books (I'll give you a list of some others) your lack of knowlage of the subject is showing. Try reading "Genocide, War Crimes and the West: History and Complicity" Scouse, Japan arent having all the glory mate. We are better at it than them. What I was taught at school in history, I have since realised most of it was lies, or at least the truth was very stretched. We were all indoctrinated into a way of thinking and we knew no better at the time, in fact some still know no better now. By the way Scouse, if you can kick off against Japan, I can kick off against any country I so desire.
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K.A .The Robin 25 March 2011 17:23
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Originally Posted by
In all wars and conflicts atrocities are carried out by all sides, there is no doubt of that. I dont read books that detail such atrocities, it is in the past and it cannot be changed, what would be the point of me reading about such horrors. I had an old relative who was a prisoner of the Japanese, he never talked about it and was never asked about it, what would have been the point?
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Geordie 25 March 2011 17:40
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Keith Baron In all wars and conflicts atrocities are carried out by all sides, there is no doubt of that. I don't read books that detail such atrocities, it is in the past and it cannot be changed, what would be the point of me reading about such horrors. I had an old relative who was a prisoner of the Japanese, he never talked about it and was never asked about it, what would have been the point? Atrocities are happening now Keith, they are not all in the past. Couple of more books....Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire by David Anderson. Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya by Caroline Elkins. These are the kind of books they dont want us to be reading, and there are many more.
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Nobby 25 March 2011 17:47
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Roy, The copy I've got was published in 1954, I bought it in 1963/64. The things the sons of Nippon did in WW2 & during their invasion of China, to my mind, puts them in a sub catagory of humanity. There were a few English gentlemen in that category too! One of them is the only King of England ever accorded the honour of a statue outside the Houses of Parliament; Richard the Lionheart. As a Crusader, he was the only guy ever to take Acre, when crusaders from several European countries had failed. The city surrendered to him, but when they were a bit slow in implementing the the surrender agreement, he paraded 2700 of them in front of the city and had them slaughtered: women, children, old men, the lot! The Japanese didnt invent butchery! When I went to school, every classroom had one of those maps of the world covered mostly in pink to show how benevolent we British were to the rest of the world, which, when you get around the world a bit you realise was utter bullshit. The Brits had no hesitation whatsoever in killing people in order to give them the message as to who was in charge. There were massacres and atrocities wherever they set foot.
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Colum 25 March 2011 19:18
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Originally Posted by
No more so than in Ireland North and South.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 04:29
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colin Hall There were a few English gentlemen in that category too! One of them is the only King of England ever accorded the honour of a statue outside the Houses of Parliament; Richard the Lionheart. As a Crusader, he was the only guy ever to take Acre, when crusaders from several European countries had failed. The city surrendered to him, but when they were a bit slow in implementing the  the surrender agreement, he paraded 2700 of them in front of the city and had them slaughtered: women, children, old men, the lot! The Japanese didn't invent butchery! When I went to school, every classroom had one of those maps of the world covered mostly in pink to show how benevolent we British were to the rest of the world, which, when you get around the world a bit you realise was utter bullshit. The Brits had no hesitation whatsoever in killing people in order to give them the message as to who was in charge. There were massacres and atrocities wherever they set foot. Alright Colin, We all learned about Richard Coeur de Lion in history & most of us know about the slaughter of Acre but there is a difference, he ruled at the end of the 12th century when such acts were commonplace. The Nipponese on the other hand committed their war crimes in the middle of the 20th century & claimed to be a civilised country. You mention Acre your figures are right but unfortunately you claim of men, women & children is not correct only men were killed because of Richards worry about such a large number of enemy in his camp if attacked by Saladin on his move south. By modern standards this was an atrocity but by the standards of the time it was the norm. Compare Acre with the city of Nanking, after the city had surrended the Imperial Army was let loose on the population. In 6 days they murdered an estimated 400,000 men women & children & raped between 60 & 80,000 women & girls of all ages. The 2 cases are not comparable as one was committed in an age of barbary the other in a so called civilised age. We admit to the slaughter in the Holy Lands the Japs on the other hand do not.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 04:40
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter Try reading "Genocide, War Crimes and the West: History and Complicity" Scouse,  Japan aren't  having all the glory mate. We are better at it than them. What I was taught at school in history, I have since realised most of it was lies, or at least the truth was very stretched. We were all indoctrinated into a way of thinking and we knew no better at the time, in fact some still know no better now. By the way  Scouse, if you can kick off against Japan,  I can kick off against any country I so desire. Alright Owen, Yeah, yeah your right, all the British Army are murdering tortures. How many did you murder, torture or rape & what was your units score? See you at the mosque As-Salamu Alaykum.
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Mac 26 March 2011 09:24
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Originally Posted by
With respect, may ask why this serious topic is in the "Just Joshing" category? Maybe a bit more thought should be given to where topics are posted.
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Geordie 26 March 2011 11:53
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Owen, Yeah, yeah your right, all the British Army are murdering tortures. How many did you murder, torture or rape & what was your units score? See you at the mosque As-Salamu Alaykum. Is that the best you could come up with then, nothing about the books that I quoted ? We are not discussing me or my unit Scouse.
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Geordie 26 March 2011 12:08
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Ray McWilliams With respect, may ask why this serious topic is in the "Just Joshing"  category? Maybe a bit more thought should be given to where topics are posted. Your right Ray, I can remember me being jumped on from a great height from an FR member and reported for starting a sports topic on General instead of the Sports Board on Special Interests. The thread was removed.
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John Richards 26 March 2011 12:31
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Originally Posted by
For two years I was a paid-up member of the Allied Occupation Forces in Nagasaki province, and I would like to offer my thoughts on the Japanese. The Japanese endeavour to do everything to the best of their ability, if you are their friend, they will love you, if you are their enemy, they will kill you. As soldiers they expected no mercy and gave none. They had grown up under a feudal system where the local Samurai literally had power of life and death over the people. Nothing can excuse the barbarism of the Japanese during the war, but we should bear in mind that, culturally, they were hardly out of the middle ages at that time.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 13:34
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter Atrocities are happening now Keith, they are not all in the past. Couple of more books....Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire by David Anderson. Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya by Caroline Elkins. These are the kind of books they don't want us to be reading, and there are many more.     Alright Owen, You are so far into revisonist history (as you have proved with your comments on the holocast a couple of years back) that anything said against your biased view just hits a brick wall & a tirade of abuse. Just for my own amusement as I know you will automatically gainsay anything that doesnt fit in with your anti western stance try reading this; "Contrary to African customs and values, (Mau Mau members) assaulted old people, women and children. The horrors they practiced included the following: decapitation and general mutilation of civilians, torture before murder, bodies bound up in sacks and dropped in wells, burning the victims alive, gouging out of eyes, splitting open the stomachs of pregnant women. No war can justify such gruesome actions. In man's inhumanity to man there is no race distinction. The Africans were practising it on themselves. There was no reason and no restraint on both sides" This wasnt said by one of us evil child killing westerners it a quote from Dr Bethwell Ogot who is a black Kenyan who just happens to be the current Chancellor of Moi University (thats in Kenya). Or may be you will ignore that western lickspittal Jomo Kenyatta in a speech in 1963 he said; "We are determined to have independence in peace, and we shall not allow hooligans to rule Kenya. We must have no hatred towards one another. Mau Mau was a disease which had been eradicated, and must never be remembered again." In all your beloved Mau Mau hacked to death at least a proved 1860 (with some estimates making it as high as 50,000) civilians, men women & children most of whom were Kikuyu. But, hey thats alright the Mau Mua werent those murdering westerners.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 13:48
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John Richards For two years I was a paid-up member of the Allied Occupation Forces in Nagasaki province, and I would like to offer my thoughts on the Japanese. The Japanese endeavour to do everything to the best of their ability, if you are their friend, they will love you, if you are their enemy, they will kill you. As soldiers they expected no mercy and gave none. They had grown up under a feudal system where the local Samurai literally had power of life and death over the people. Nothing can excuse the barbarism of the Japanese during the war, but we should bear in mind that, culturally,  they were hardly out of the middle ages at that time. Alright John, Im willing to accept that, but til the current Nip people face up to what was done in their name, make a meaningful apology & stop falsifying the events how can they be forgiven. Lets face it the tomb of General Prince Asaka, the General who unleashed the IJA on the population of Nanking, has been turned into shrine.
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Geordie 26 March 2011 14:09
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons [I] Alright Owen, You are so far into revisonist history (as you have proved with your comments on the holocast a couple of years back) that anything said against your biased view just hits a brick wall & a tirade of abuse. ................................................................................. Reply...First of all...what tirade of abuse ? secondly, anything said against your biased view is frowned upon, and if you look back over the thread I am not the only one who holds alternative views to you. ..................................................................................   Just for my own amusement as I know you will automatically gainsay anything that doesn't fit in with your anti western stance try reading this; .................................................................................. Reply... You said...... "Alright Owen, Before you carry on your usual kick against Israel & the west read those books (I'll give you a list of some others) your lack of knowlage of the subject is showing." Did you read any of the books that I had listed ? BUT ITS QUITE ALRIGHT FOR YOU TO GIVE ME A LIST OF BOOKS TO READ.....IS IT ? .................................................................................. All I am saying is that Western civilisation carry out atrocities, murder, torture and rape....do you agree or not ?
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K.A .The Robin 26 March 2011 14:19
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter Atrocities are happening now Keith, they are not all in the past. Couple of more books....Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire by David Anderson. Britain's Gulag: The Brutal End of Empire in Kenya by Caroline Elkins. These are the kind of books they don't want us to be reading, and there are many more.     Thanks Owen, I suspect there are many such books as you say but I could not read them, I would have nightmares.
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Nobby 26 March 2011 14:30
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Originally Posted by
It is impossible to make retrospective judgments on who did what to whom 70 years ago. The one thing wrong with history is it is written by the winners, and British history as taught to me at school was largely a distortion of fact which skated over the atrocities committed in the name of Empire! Men responded, in real time and often on wholly inadequate information, to the moral dilemmas posed daily by the conduct of war.  We bombed the crap out of Dresden for no military reason, and we nuked Japan when the war was virtually over and Japan was beaten everywhere but in Japan which was a smoking ruin. Apologies today for events of 60-70 years ago are pointless. So if you want a"meaningful" apology from Japan, I take it you'll be nipping over to Dresden to do the same? Last edited by Colin Hall
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 14:45
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter [I]Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons [I] Alright Owen, You are so far into revisonist history (as you have proved with your comments on the holocast a couple of years back) that anything said against your biased view just hits a brick wall & a tirade of abuse. ................................................................................. Reply...First of all...what tirade of abuse ? secondly, anything said against your biased view is frowned upon, and if you look back over the thread I am not the only one who holds alternative views to you.   ..................................................................................   Just for my own amusement as I know you will automatically gainsay anything that doesn't fit in with your anti western stance try reading this; .................................................................................. Reply... You said...... "Alright Owen, Before you carry on your usual kick against Israel & the west read those books (I'll give you a list of some others) your lack of knowlage of the subject is showing." Did you read any of the books that I had listed ? BUT IT'S QUITE ALRIGHT FOR YOU TO GIVE ME A LIST OF BOOKS TO READ.....IS IT ? .................................................................................. All I am saying is that Western civilisation carry out atrocities, murder, torture and rape....do you agree or not ?   [/I] Alright Owen, lets look at just one of the authurs of the books you recomend Caroline Elkins - A white American. She teaches courses on modern Africa, protest in East Africa, human rights in Africa, & British colonial violence in the 20th century. She also supported the IRA & is renowned for her anti-British stance. James Mitchell, in a highly critical review of the book, said I shudder for those of her students who expect academic rigour: Elkins doesnt let facts stand in the way of a good rant. David Elstein has also noted severe shortcomings in Elkins methodology and conclusions. Elstein contends that her casualty figures are derived from an idiosyncratic reading of census figures & a tendentious interpretation of the fortified village scheme. At least the two I quoted were black Kenyans.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 15:04
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colin Hall It is impossible to make retrospective judgments on who did what to whom 70 years ago. The one thing wrong with history is it is written by the winners, and British history as taught to me at school was largely a distortion of fact which skated over the atrocities committed in the name of Empire! Men responded, in real time and often on wholly inadequate information, to the moral dilemmas posed daily by the conduct of war.  We bombed the crap out of Dresden for no military reason, and we nuked Japan when the war was virtually over and Japan was beaten everywhere but in Japan which was a smoking ruin. Apologies today for events of 60-70 years ago are pointless. So if you want a"meaningful" apology from Japan, I take it you'll  be nipping over to Dresden to do the same? Last edited by Colin Hall Alright Colin, First your contension that Japan was beaten doesnt hold water. The Jap home islands had been turned into an armed camp, the civil population had been issued arms & trained in their use & had been brainwashed into taking 10 invaders with them before they die. With the experience gained fighting the Japs it was estimated that at least 2 - 3 million Jap civilians would die in the event of an invasion At the cost of hundreds of thousands allied troops. The 2 A bombs brought the war to an end with a smaller butchers bill than would other wise be exacted. Now as for Dresden. Revisionalists like to claim thatDresden was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, a "Florence on the Elbe", however the facts dont bare this out. Dresden was was a major rail transportation and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the Nazi war effort & was the main conduit for Hitlers forces on their way to the eastern front. All that aside there is a difference between a pilot at 30,000 feet dropping a bomb & a man with a rifle & bayonet being let loose & told to rape, kill & maim.
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Spud 26 March 2011 15:07
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Originally Posted by
JAPAN

Perhaps the original post by Brian was about a subject which should not be in the the Just Joshing drawer? Brian? I think that all nations have carried out atrocities to other nations and indeed to their own people at one time or another. So we start down the so-and-so wrote this and so-and-so wrote that road. Then attack an authors credibility to attack the credibility of what the author has said. My books are better than yours kind of thing, like. I fear this angle of approach does nothing to advance the argument one way or another. Rather it becomes a personal battle between FR rivals trying to prove how macho they are. However, Owen is right inasmuch as the West, including the US and the UK have carried out some pretty horrendous stuff. Israel too. The same is true for Arab countries and China etc etc. No, theres no exceptions and (back to the point) Japan is up there with every other nation. The fact is, that humans are sometimes cruel to one another and it doesnt matter what religion, race, creed or colour they are nor any rationale used as justification for it.
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Geordie 26 March 2011 16:32
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Owen, let's look at just one of the authurs of the books you 'recomend' Caroline Elkins - A white American. She teaches courses on modern Africa, protest in East Africa, human rights in Africa, & British colonial violence in the 20th century. She also supported the IRA & is renowned for her anti-British stance. James Mitchell, in a highly critical review of the book, said 'I shudder for those of her students who expect academic rigour: Elkins doesn't let facts stand in the way of a good rant. David Elstein has also noted severe shortcomings in Elkins' methodology and conclusions. Elstein contends that her casualty figures are derived from an idiosyncratic reading of census figures & a tendentious interpretation of the fortified village scheme. At least the two I quoted were black Kenyans. Like Steven said.....quote: "Then attack an author's credibility to attack the credibility of what the author has said. 'My books are better than your's' kind of thing, like." I noticed you gave two critical views from James Mitchell and David Elstein.... Now what about all those positive reviews that you didnt mentioned ? but we wont go into that eh, anyone can diss an author Scouse, no point in side tracking the issue is there now ? especially when I asked you the question "Western civilisation carry out atrocities, murder, torture and rape....DO YOU AGREE OR NOT ?"
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 16:55
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter Like Steven said.....quote: "Then attack an author's credibility to attack the credibility of what the author has said. 'My books are better than your's' kind of thing, like." I noticed you gave two critical views from James Mitchell and David Elstein.... Now what about all those positive reviews that you didn't mentioned ? but we won't go into that eh, anyone can diss an author Scouse, no point in side tracking the issue is there now ? especially when I asked you the question  "Western civilisation carry out atrocities, murder, torture and rape....DO YOU AGREE OR NOT  ?" Alright Owen, No need to shout sunshine. In answer to you poorly posed question you will have to tell me what you deem as an atrocity. As you obviously dont think that the murder rape & torture carried out in the thousands in Nanking or in Kenya in the hundreds worthy of the title, could it be that the perpetrators arent from the west? As for side tracking, you brought Kenya into the mix, where abouts in the Jap home islands is Kenya? Colin dragged in Acre is that just outside Tokio? & Dresden as everyone knows is on the eastern side of Honshu.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 17:08
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Steven Collins So we start down the so-and-so wrote this and so-and-so wrote that road. Then attack an author's credibility to attack the credibility of what the author has said. 'My books are better than your's' kind of thing, like.   I fear this angle of approach does nothing to advance the argument one way or another.  Rather it becomes a personal battle between FR rivals trying to prove how macho they are. Alright Steven, I beg to differ, if a book is put up as gospel but the authur is well known for shoddy research & a long standing hatred of one side you then have to ask how valid is the book. How much credence would you put on a book about WW2 atrocities carried out by the Jews written by Joseph Goebbels? No its nothing to do with Macho its all about credible evidence. Owen, as usual, diverted the debate so he could air his usual diatribe against the west, but mainly the UK giving as proof his usual untrustworthy sources.
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Geordie 26 March 2011 17:35
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons [I] Alright Owen, No need to shout sunshine. .................................................................................. Reply...Emphasising mate, just stressing the point, just a little shout to attract your attention like. .................................................................................. In answer to you poorly posed question you will have to tell me what you deem as an atrocity. .................................................................................. Reply... No I wont, if you dont know what an atrocity is, then look it up in one of your books....or Google, c,mon Scouse mate your letting the side down. .................................................................................. As you obviously don't think that the murder rape & torture carried out in the thousands in Nanking or in Kenya in the hundreds worthy of the title, could it be that the perpetrators aren't from the west? .................................................................................. Reply...Obviously you havent got a clue what I think .................................................................................. As for side tracking, you brought Kenya into the mix, where abouts in the Jap home islands is Kenya? Colin dragged in Acre is that just outside Tokio? & Dresden as everyone knows is on the eastern side of Honshu .................................................................................. Stop asking silly questions and buy an Atlas.
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John Richards 26 March 2011 17:52
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colin Hall It is impossible to make retrospective judgments on who did what to whom 70 years ago. The one thing wrong with history is it is written by the winners, and British history as taught to me at school was largely a distortion of fact which skated over the atrocities committed in the name of Empire! Men responded, in real time and often on wholly inadequate information, to the moral dilemmas posed daily by the conduct of war.  We bombed the crap out of Dresden for no military reason, and we nuked Japan when the war was virtually over and Japan was beaten everywhere but in Japan which was a smoking ruin. Apologies today for events of 60-70 years ago are pointless. So if you want a"meaningful" apology from Japan, I take it you'll  be nipping over to Dresden to do the same? ................................................................................ Had the Americans not dropped the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Japanese would have continued the war. The war was not virtually over, indeed the worst of it was yet to come. Had the Allies landed on Japanese soil, every single man, woman and child would have fought to the death. The reason that the Japanese surrendered after the bombs was to protect the sacred graves of their ancestors, not to save their own skins. Last edited by Colin Hall Last edited by John Richards Last edited by John Richards
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John (Scouse) Hirons 26 March 2011 18:27
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Owen Hunter [I]Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons [I] Alright Owen, No need to shout sunshine. .................................................................................. Reply...Emphasising mate, just stressing the point, just a little shout to attract your attention like. .................................................................................. In answer to you poorly posed question you will have to tell me what you deem as an atrocity. .................................................................................. Reply... No I wont, if you don't know what an atrocity is, then look it up in one of your books....or Google, c,mon Scouse mate your letting the side down. .................................................................................. As you obviously don't think that the murder rape & torture carried out in the thousands in Nanking or in Kenya in the hundreds worthy of the title, could it be that the perpetrators aren't from the west? .................................................................................. Reply...Obviously you haven't got a clue what I think   .................................................................................. As for side tracking, you brought Kenya into the mix, where abouts in the Jap home islands is Kenya? Colin dragged in Acre is that just outside Tokio? & Dresden as everyone knows is on the eastern side of Honshu .................................................................................. Stop asking silly questions and buy an Atlas. [/I] Alright Owen, I asked you to define your idea of what is an atrocity, its now clear that you have no idea but think its something done by those dirty rotten child raping British soldiers. As for the rest of your post it shows that you can jump around like a spastic frog but dont like it when you are pinned down. Im surprised to find out that you dont think Kenya is in Japan, why did you drag it in to a debate on Japan, could it be just another excuse for you to have a crack & the UK & the west? I will not answer any post you make on this thread unless its about Japan & the Japonese, so you can trot your black propaganda out to your hearts content. Fill yer boots.
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Murray Whyte 26 March 2011 18:32
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Originally Posted by
Spanner incomming

Massacres and Atrocities of World War II - page 1 of 4 - within the countries of Belgium, France, Greece, and Holland. Dedicated to all those who lost their lives through Mans inhumanity to Man, which knows no bounds of race, creed, or time. Any war must be categorized as an "atrocity" but the war that Hitler started brought a scale of atrocity never previously known. The statistics of World War II clearly qualify it, by far, as the most heinous atrocity in all recorded history. Within this period the world has enjoyed real peace for only 268 years. The events described here occurred more than sixty years ago and yet they are discussed to this day and have made indelible impressions on present-day society. The compilation here and the facts presented are as complete as possible consistent with what has already been researched and published. My sincere thanks go to all those ex-servicemen and history buffs who have contacted me with corrections and updates. From George Duncans Historical Facts of WW2 http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html
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Nobby 26 March 2011 19:10
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Originally Posted by
Err Murry, old buddy, old pal, and Lord of The Moderators, how come you get to post links when I cant and in fact have had them removed? By Phil!
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Nobby 26 March 2011 19:19
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Owen, I asked you to define your idea of what is an atrocity, it's now clear that you have no idea but think it's something done by those dirty rotten child raping British soldiers.   . The Japanese were bad bastards, no question about it, but they were  not the only country to commit wartime atrocities. Many of the "Japanese" guards in prison camps were in fact Koreans, who were, if anything, more sadistic than the Japs. I'm not defending what they, the Japanese did, but to suggest that they were the only ones who committed wartime atrocities is quite frankly ill-informed. It was a World War, and all sides were guilty of some questionable action. Last edited by Colin Hall
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Geordie 26 March 2011 19:20
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Originally Posted by
[QUOTE]Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons [I] Alright Owen, I asked you to define your idea of what is an atrocity, it's now clear that you have no idea but think it's something done by those dirty rotten child raping British soldiers. .................................................................................. Reply...Check out Murrays post on "Massacres and atrocities if you are still unsure of the definition mate. .................................................................................   As for the rest of your post it shows that you can jump around like a spastic frog but don't like it when you are pinned down. ................................................................................. Reply... Your the one pinned down, Ill ask you again. Do you think that Western civilisation carry out atrocities, murder, torture and rape....DO YOU AGREE OR NOT ?" .................................................................................   I'm surprised to find out that you don't think Kenya is in Japan, why did you drag it in to a debate on Japan, could it be just another excuse for you to have a crack & the UK & the west? .................................................................................. Reply...Just one example of exposing the brutality of late empire British colonialism in Kenya. ..................................................................................   I will not answer any post you make on this thread unless it's about Japan & the Japonese, so you can trot your black propaganda out to your hearts content. Fill yer boots. .................................................................................. Reply...Well thats up to you mate, does that apply to Murray as well ?
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Geordie 26 March 2011 19:37
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colin Hall Err Murry, old buddy, old pal, and Lord of The Moderators, how come you get to post links when I can't and in fact have had them removed? By Phil! Phil told me that moderators were allowed to post links Colin, members are not allowed.
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Sparky 26 March 2011 19:44
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Originally Posted by
Steve i did not realize i put this in the Just Joshing draw because there is nothing funny about it After reading all the coments i did not think it would cause such a heated debate
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Spud 26 March 2011 19:48
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: brian amos Steve i did not realize i put this in the Just Joshing draw because there is nothing funny about it After reading all the coments i did not think it would cause such a heated debate I am not having a go, its just that I am relatively new to this forum and wondered what was going on!
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Murray Whyte 26 March 2011 19:51
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Originally Posted by
Colin, I thought that all could post copy and paste references to other sites.
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Murray Whyte 26 March 2011 19:56
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Originally Posted by
Murdered boxers brothers jailed for horrific torture

From the Evening News Published Date: 26 March 2011 By ALAN McEWEN Crime Reporter TWO brothers of a former boxing champion murdered in The Marmion pub shootings have been jailed for 20 years for the sadistic torture of a man who leapt through a window to save his own life. Colin McKinnon, 38, and Thomas McKinnon, 31, were convicted of attempting to murder drug dealer David Taylor, who was subjected to an hour-long catalogue of violence after being lured to a Craigentinny flat. During the attack, branded "sickening" by detectives, the pair, along with their brother-in-law Jamie Ferguson, 26, also poured a kettle of boiling water over victim Margaret Neilson. A court heard that the McKinnons, whose brother Alex McKinnon was gunned down five years ago, used Taylor to sell drugs on their behalf, but suspected he and Neilson had been stealing from them. They tricked the victims into coming to a ground-floor flat belonging to an associate in Craigentinny Road on July 14 last year, where both Taylor and Neilson were seized by the arms and dragged to the kitchen. The torture gang stuffed socks in the victims mouths and taped them shut. Neilson was stabbed with a knife in the hand before having the kettle of scolding water poured over her legs, which left severe burns and blisters. She was eventually locked in a bathroom while the McKinnons and Ferguson spent an hour torturing Taylor, punching him on the head and body, headbutting him, and stabbing him repeatedly with a knife, as well as trying to pour boiling water over him. Detective Sergeant Mike Leask, who led the investigation, told the Evening News: "David Taylor was stabbed again and again in the legs and body. He suffered a stab wound to the bowel so severe that it actually caused his bowel to fall out. Fearing that he was about to die, he jumped through the kitchen window and ran through the back garden and on to Craigentinny Golf Course course where he was found on the fairway by golfers." Neither Taylor, who is in his late 30s, nor Neilson, who is in her 40s, admitted to stealing drugs worth thousands of pounds from the McKinnons during the torture ordeal. Both were left terrified and went into hiding, but were traced by police and gave evidence during the trial at the High Court in Glasgow. The McKinnons were found guilty by a jury of the attempted murder of Taylor and attacking Neilson to her severe injury and disfigurement, with each receiving ten years in prison and a five-year extended sentence. Co-accused Ferguson was given seven years and a three-year extended sentence for attacking the victims to their severe injury and disfigurement, but cleared of the attempted murder of Taylor. Charges against the McKinnons of dealing heroin and amphetamine from a property in Meadowbank between July 14 2009 and July 14 last year were withdrawn by the Crown. The addresses for all three men were given as Saughton Prison. DS Leask added: "This was a truly horrific crime. The level of violence used was sickening and they were completely callous. We are delighted by the sentence. They are a danger to the public." Notorious family THE McKinnon brothers have been involved in a number of high-profile court cases in recent years. Colin McKinnon was previously jailed for three years in January 2008 for selling drugs to an undercover police officer. He was arrested in Operation Logic, set up to target dealers preying on homeless people in drop-in centres and hostels in Edinburgh. Former bantamweight boxer Alex McKinnon, 32, died after being shot by gunman Jamie Bain at The Marmion Bar in April 2006. Bain and his accomplices Richard Cosgrove and Bernard Young were jailed for a total of 61 years. Another McKinnon brother, Shaun (pictured), was sentenced to four-and-a-half years last April after admitting being concerned in the supply of heroin. The 24-year-old was tracked by officers driving to Manchester to pick up heroin with a street value of nearly £50,000. During the police operation cocaine and heroin worth more than £200,000 on the streets were recovered.
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Murray Whyte 26 March 2011 19:58
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Originally Posted by
As you can read from the above article, torture is still happening on our own doorstep. In my opinion what is done is done and nothing can change that. Everyone deserves a second chance.
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Geordie 26 March 2011 20:28
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Originally Posted by
I'm not sure if everyone deserves a second chance Murray. Not when you hear stories of horrific crimes of US troops against Iraqi civilians.... In March 2006, a group of whiskey fueled soldiers, descended upon a farmhouse some 20 miles south of Baghdad, gang raped a teenage girl and shot her in the head, killing her along with her younger sister and their parents. The soldiers then tried to burn the bodies, setting fire to the house. Would you give those soldiers a second chance ? Edit: The crime was initially blamed on insurgents but three months later, the truth was revealed, when a fellow soldier from the unit told combat stress counsellors about what had happened. Last edited by Owen Hunter
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Sparky 26 March 2011 20:51
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Originally Posted by
The original question was should we forgive and forget i know Germany has apologised and Japan hasnt but what use is an apology is it any good to all those still alive who have suffered unspeakable treatment at their hands
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Geordie 26 March 2011 21:19
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: brian amos The original question was should we forgive and forget i know Germany has apologised and Japan has'nt but what use is an apology is it any good to all those still alive who have suffered unspeakable treatment at their hands Forgive and forget...NO and NO, the damage has been done. Apologies, saying that theyre sorry doesnt wash with me, despite whoever or whatever country commits the atrocities.
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