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New Taranis combat aircraft thunders into view

{{forumThread.upVotes}} Created by Fr Admin 13 July 2010 11:52 25132 views Link  
Fr Admin 13 July 2010 11:52
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Originally Posted by
New Taranis combat aircraft thunders into view

A prototype unmanned combat aircraft of the future, Taranis, has been unveiled by the MOD for the first time today.


Named after the Celtic god of thunder, the concept demonstrator will test the possibility of developing the first ever autonomous, stealth Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) that would ultimately be capable of precisely striking targets at long range, even in another continent.

Should such systems enter into service, they will at all times be under the control of highly trained military crews on the ground.

Speaking at the unveiling ceremony at BAE Systems in Warton, Lancashire, Minister for International Security Strategy Gerald Howarth said:

"Taranis is a truly trailblazing project. The first of its kind in the UK, it reflects the best of our nations advanced design and technology skills and is a leading programme on the global stage."

Representing the pinnacle of UK engineering and aeronautical design, Taranis is an informal partnership of the MOD and industry talents including BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, QinetiQ and GE Aviation.
The Taranis unmanned combat aircraft prototype


Speaking on behalf of the industry team, Nigel Whitehead, Group Managing Director of BAE Systems Programmes and Support business, said:

"Taranis has been three-and-a-half years in the making and is the product of more than a million man-hours.

"It represents a significant step forward in this countrys fast-jet capability. This technology is key to sustaining a strong industrial base and to maintain the UKs leading position as a centre for engineering excellence and innovation."

The Taranis prototype will provide the MOD with critical knowledge on the technical and manufacturing challenges and the potential capabilities of Unmanned Combat Air Systems. Flight trials are due in 2011.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 13 July 2010 15:54
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Originally Posted by
For Christs sake havent we got enough killing machines.
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P S 13 July 2010 16:27
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Originally Posted by
Taranis combat aircraft thunders into view

Hear! Hear! Yet another machine that has been designed purely for the purpose of killing other human beings. Why! For what purpose?
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Baz 13 July 2010 16:47
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Originally Posted by
... under the control of highly ... They would say that wouldnt they. Just like the highly trained police that killed Brazilian lad - all 5 of them .
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John (Scouse) Hirons 13 July 2010 18:23
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison For Christs sake havent we got enough killing machines. Alright Brian, The simple answer is no. nowhere near enough.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 13 July 2010 18:30
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Stephen Hill ... under the control of highly ... They would say that wouldn't they. Just like the highly trained police that killed Brazilian lad - all 5 of them . Alright Stephen. De Menezes was shot with good old fashioned pistols. Just a thought maybe we should arm our lads with long bows & spears. Ps Its the RAF that will control them, they will be highly trained.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 13 July 2010 18:32
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Tokarski Hear! Hear! Yet another machine that has been designed purely for the purpose of killing other human beings. Why! For what purpose? Alright Brian, At a rough guess I would say for killing people, with out needlessly risking our own.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 13 July 2010 19:02
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Originally Posted by
Yes John that is a simple answer!!!!! . VERY SIMPLE.
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John Peck 13 July 2010 19:34
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Originally Posted by
If the" Brazilian lad" hadnt been an illegal immigrant he would be alive now. Facing a person who could be a suicide bomber doesnt give you a long time to make decisions.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 13 July 2010 20:20
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison Yes John that is a simple answer!!!!! . VERY SIMPLE. Alright Brian, Well what would you suggest? do you want our lads to have the best weapons available? or should they struggle on & die with out moded kit? Personally I want our boys to be equiped with the most modern weaponry available, do you remember the hue & cry when our lads first went to Afghanistan? every man & his dog were moaning that they didnt have enough modern equipment now it would appear that you are moaning that they are getting it.
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Old Sweat (Puddle Jumper) 13 July 2010 21:29
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Originally Posted by
Having just returned from yet another Military Funeral (1st Btn Mercian Regt Cheshire) my feelings are the better the equipment then the better chance our lads and lassies have DESPITE THE COSTS!!
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R.A.F. 13 July 2010 21:30
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Originally Posted by
I am just hearing on the news of the murder of three british solders adding more to the horrific total of wasted lives in that god forsaken country of Afganistan. While I admit the british are doing a fantastic job out there, much to be proud of. the answer is not a proper vetting system of Afgans that want to be trained to be Afgan soldier, but to get rid of the Afgan president who is not liked by the majority of Afgans and appoint some one that is and may be all these rogue Afgans that seem to get through and turn their weapons on the Brits will stop, its not rocket science....
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Murray Whyte 13 July 2010 22:46
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Originally Posted by
The Daily Mail published an article on the 8th July 2010. Interesting stuff: Hitlers stealth bomber
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’Nos Redieramus’ 13 July 2010 22:51
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Originally Posted by
John I bet there was a john crying about better weapons etc when my great great Grand father died fighting in Afghanistan in 1883. And no doubt there will be one in a hundred yrs time spouting the same ol thing.
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Tow 13 July 2010 23:34
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Originally Posted by
WHAT THEY NEED IS MORE AIR POWER.
TERRY MANNING
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Pamela Forbes 13 July 2010 23:37
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison John I bet there was a john crying about better weapons etc when my great great Grand father died fighting in Afghanistan in 1883. And no doubt there will be one in a hundred yrs time spouting the same ol thing. Brian, I have read and reread your posts on this in an effort to understand just where you are coming from but I still find myself at a loss. You seem to be a master of short meaningless phrases. So far you havent answered any of the questions Scouse has put to you. Do you believe that we should not be not be making attempts to improve equipment within the Armed Forces? Would you like to explain to my son,who has already served 3 tours in Afghanistan, why you think he doesnt deserve the very best equipment possible both to carry out the mission he has been tasked with and for his and his fellow soldiers safety?
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Lockie 14 July 2010 08:13
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Originally Posted by
im an ex army wife are boys should get al he support they can getthey are risking there live for our country i bet ther whould like to be home come on help our boys with support im 100%prcent be hind them im mrs lock my husband served with the derrs 1960 to 1970
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’Nos Redieramus’ 14 July 2010 10:21
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Originally Posted by
Pamela I will answer John when he puts a question to me. I will do the same with you when you ask me in a polite sensible manner, instead of accusing me of things I have not said.

But while I am here will put my point of view.

Of course our front line troops deserve and need everyone's support, up to date equipment in plentiful supply etc. What is not needed is a long distance killing machine that is really only intended for wiping out entire populations. It is not a weapon a soldier will carry into battle to defend himself. I remember the unmanned machines Hitler sent over England in ww11 - Doodle bugs - V1 -V2 - they done nothing but kill and maim civilians, we were bombed out of our home three times in different parts of London.


So please don't ask me to explain to your son about anything as I don't feel I have a need to. Rather I would like some one to explain to me for what and why are our forces in Afghanistan. (If not only to appease the USA)


We went to war in 1939 with Germany because he invaded another country Poland. That's why the UN was set up to prevent one country invading another.

For the record I have two grandsons in the Royal Marines 3Cmd who have also toured that God forsaken land and even they don't really know what they were are doing there.



Now that wasn't a short meaningless phrase was it?
.
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K.A .The Robin 14 July 2010 12:31
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Originally Posted by
When Project Taranis was started in 2007 the Ministry of Defences Suave Team - Strategic Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Experiment stated at the time.............. Operational analysis and technological evidence is currently too immature to categorically confirm that the capabilities offered by a flying robot will fulfil requirements. Evidence will be gathered for a decision around 2011 on the future force mix of manned and unmanned air vehicles in the 2018 to 2025 timeframe and beyond. So, if in 2011 the MOD decide to go ahead and produce these wonder machines they would not be in use until much later and surely we hope all our troops will be home from Afghanistan by then.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 14 July 2010 13:38
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison Pamela I will answer John when he puts a question to me. I will do the same with you when you ask me in a polite sensible manner, instead of accusing me of things I have not said. But while I am here will put my point of view. Of course our front line troops deserve and need everyone's support, up to date equipment in plentiful supply etc. What is not needed is a long distance killing machine that is really only intended for wiping out entire populations. It is not a weapon a soldier will carry into battle to defend himself. I remember the unmanned machines Hitler sent over England in ww11 - Doodle bugs - V1 -V2 - they done nothing but kill and maim civilians, we were bombed out of our home three times in different parts of London. So please don't ask me to explain to your son about anything as I don't feel I have a need to. Rather I would like some one to explain to me for what and why are our forces in Afghanistan. (If not only to appease the USA) We went to war in 1939 with Germany because he invaded another country Poland. That's why the UN was set up to prevent one country invading another. For the record I have two grandsons in the Royal Marines 3Cmd who have also toured that God forsaken land and even they don't really know what they were are doing there. Now that wasn't a short meaningless phrase was it? . Alright Brian, Comparing the Project Taranis with the Fieseler Fi 103 (Vergeltungswaffen 1) is like comparing a wooden club to an assult rifle. You may not have noticed but targeting & control have improved over the last 65 years. Your reasons for Britain declaring war in 1939 is rather simplistic, it had more to do with continental trade than the invasion of Poland, other wise if it was just territorial why didnt we declare war on the USSR who also invaded Poland? It also seems to have escaped your attention that the UN authorised the Afghan war in 1991, all the troops fighting out there do so under UN mandate 1386 which is updated yearly. I find it strange that your two grandsons dont know what they are fighting for, my Nephew who is currently serving with the RN (FAA) has served out there & not only was he fully briefed on the situation but agrees with the war aims.
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Hells Last Issue 14 July 2010 19:45
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Brian, Comparing the Project Taranis with the Fieseler Fi 103 (Vergeltungswaffen 1) is like comparing a wooden club to an assult rifle. You may not have noticed but targeting & control have improved over the last 65 years.   Your reasons for Britain declaring war in 1939 is rather simplistic, it had more to do with continental trade than the invasion of Poland, other wise if it was just territorial why didn't we declare war on the USSR who also invaded Poland? It also seems to have escaped your attention that the UN authorised the Afghan war in 1991, all the troops fighting out there do so under UN mandate 1386 which is updated yearly.   I find it strange that your two grandsons don't know what they are fighting for, my Nephew who is currently serving with the RN (FAA) has served out there & not only was he fully briefed on the situation but agrees with the war aims. You can say all you want about the remote machines we see appearing on the military inventories today howeve IF OUR BOYS HAVE TO FIGHT A MAJOR WAR against a power which has more resources than us I would like to think we had access to equipments that would enable us to destroy the nemy in large numbers which would give us a chance.
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Murray Whyte 14 July 2010 20:56
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John Paterson McManus You can say all you want about the remote machines we see appearing on the military inventories today howeve IF OUR BOYS HAVE TO FIGHT A MAJOR WAR against a power which has more resources than us I would like to think we had access to equipments that would enable us to destroy the nemy in large numbers which would give us a chance. Hi John, You quoted Scouse in your reply. I dont think Scouse has any problems with the best equipment for the forces. He was replying to someone else.
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Norwegian Blue 14 July 2010 22:12
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Originally Posted by
Thunder

What a strange thread.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 24 July 2010 12:16
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Originally Posted by
Alright John. One simple reply to compliment another. The UN may have endorsed Afghan war in 1991, but it condemned the Russian invasion of 1979. Guess Russia paved the way so to speak for forcing the UN into altering its policies. As for your Nephew understanding and agreeing with the reasons he is in Afghanistan perhaps he could enlighten me because as I said earlier am (as I am sure are countless others) at a loss as to WHY. Or was his brief etc as secrete as the reasons
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John (Scouse) Hirons 24 July 2010 13:48
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison Alright John. One simple reply to compliment another. The UN may have endorsed Afghan war in 1991, but it condemned the Russian invasion of 1979. Guess Russia paved the way so to speak for forcing the UN into altering its policies. As for your Nephew understanding and agreeing with the reasons he is in Afghanistan perhaps he could enlighten me because as I said earlier am (as I am sure are countless others) at a loss as to WHY. Or was his brief etc as secrete as the reasons Alright Brian, To give an in detail response as to why the USSRs invasion was condemned would go on too long & bore other readers to death but in short hand it was the because the USSR invaded Afghanistan to maintain a puppet government in a satalite state. The UNSC didnt condemn the invasion that was done by the UNGA when they passed a resolution protesting the Soviet invasion in a session mainly comprised of Islamic states who voted on a motion put forward by 34 Islamic states. The USSRs invasion was never declared illegal as they were invited in by the lawful government of that state. As for the reason we are in Afghanistan, that has raked over ad nauseum on FR for the last couple of years & to go over it again would be counter productive on a thread set up to discuss a new weapon aimed at reducing the risk to our troops. What I find very strange indeed is that you have family fighting over there yet you saw fit to post "John I bet there was a john crying about better weapons etc when my great great Grand father died fighting in Afghanistan in 1883. And no doubt there will be one in a hundred yrs time spouting the same ol thing." Do we take it from this that you dont want our lads to have the best most up to date weapons available? Hows that for a straight forward question! I think you need to read back over this thread, I have been cheering for the Taranis Project it has been your posts that have cried about it.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 24 July 2010 23:46
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Originally Posted by
Sob Sob, no john im no crying over the Taranis Project, just the uninformative replies you keep giving. Oh well of to face book to read some different fairy stories. tc Bye
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 July 2010 03:51
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison Sob Sob, no john im no crying over the Taranis Project, just the uninformative replies you keep giving. Oh well of to face book to read some different fairy stories. tc Bye Alright Brian, I have tried to give fair & civil answers to your asinine posturing & provocative alleged questions but it seems all you want to do is make silly little quotes straight from "quotes for the brain dead" or try in a very ineffective way to insult me & other posters in a vane attempt to make yourself look like a big boy. All in all you are a silly little man with an exaggerated idea of your own adequacy.
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Plaudant, Deridant Emung Eos 25 July 2010 05:38
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison For Christs sake havent we got enough killing machines. hi brian, I like the look of the plane and if we can train it to kill only other killing machines isnt that ok???????????
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 09:07
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Originally Posted by
Alright John the dictionary. Did that last posting make you feel like a big man. SAD SO SAD.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 09:09
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Originally Posted by
PS John vain not vane. guess you copied a word wrong.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 10:24
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Originally Posted by
To show im not alone, this is part of a message sent to me. Hi Brian-------------------------------all by one person--friend Scouse--he will argue with any point that you put on any forum, I have yet to see him agree on anything ,so be warned mate, ditto was always having arguements with Scouse and finally he just gave up and let him ramble on--don`t know where he gets his info from, just be warned mate. No offence John but surely this must tell you something. I will not reply to your insults anymore, thanks for the laugh. Last edited by Murray Whyte
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 11:18
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: sylvia Burrows, [nee] penman hi brian, I like the look of the plane and if we can train it to kill only other killing machine's isnt that ok??????????? If that would include my exercise machine Sylvia, then yes. Because it can be a right killer sometimes. lol
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Mahatchma 25 July 2010 13:02
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Originally Posted by
Is Brian Davison AKA Hudson?

The tone of the posts is familiar!
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The Huntress 25 July 2010 13:09
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Ian Hatch The tone of the posts is familiar! You are not alone thinking that Ian, well spotted. and whoever puts on a part of a pm reveals he cannot be trusted with private /personal mail, neither do they or the writer have the balls to put the full post on the forum. Pathetic really. Scouse must be rolling on the floor laughing
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 July 2010 13:28
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison PS John vain not vane. guess you copied a word wrong. Alright Brian, Oh woe is me, I made a spelling mistake how will I ever live with the shame? But as you place yourself as the English teacher maybe I can help you improve your english; "Sob Sob, no john im" -- The j in John should be a capital J as its The first letter of a name. Im as you see should be typed with a capital I apostrophe m "no crying over the Taranis Project, just the uninformative replies you keep giving. Oh well of to face book to read some different fairy stories. tc Bye" - The 16th word in your, erm, post should be spelt with two fs as of & off meant totally different things. "As for your Nephew understanding and agreeing with the reasons he is in Afghanistan perhaps he could enlighten me because as I said earlier am (as I am sure are countless others) at a loss as to WHY. Or was his brief etc as secrete as the reasons" - You seem to think my Nephew is some form of bodily fluid as thats what secrete means or did you mean secret, which means hidden from knowledge or view. If you need anymore help with your usage of the English language just give me a shout but youll have to remember that Im dislexic. Theres an old saying containing the words glass houses & throwing stones you should look it up.
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 July 2010 13:30
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Patricia Davies You are not alone thinking that Ian,  well spotted. and whoever puts on 'a part of a pm' reveals he cannot be trusted with private /personal mail, neither do they or the writer have the balls to put the full post on the forum. Pathetic really. Scouse must be rolling on the floor laughing Alright Pat, You can bet your bippy on that my love. Mind you its nice to know that a certain RP has found a new owner.
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Pamela Forbes 25 July 2010 13:33
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Originally Posted by
   It's definitely not Sam folks.  However, I think that Scouse has summed him up pretty well in his last post but one! Sorry, make that last post but two! You are far too fast on that keyboard Scouse! Last edited by Pamela Forbes
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 July 2010 13:52
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Originally Posted by
Alright Brian, Name: Brian Davison Service Number: 22408550 Rank: Private Year Joined: 1950 Where are you now?: Living happily. At the risk of repeating myself why havent you put any details of your nebulous but undoubted gallant service career on your profile? Jeeze Ive heard of the unknown soldier but the unknown Regiment thats a new one.
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Margaret 25 July 2010 14:03
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Originally Posted by
new Taranis combat aircraft thunders into view

Quoting: Patricia Davies and whoever puts on 'a part of a pm' reveals he cannot be trusted with private /personal mail, neither do they or the writer have the balls to put the full post on the forum. Pathetic really. Scouse must be rolling on the floor laughing my thoughts exactly Patricia....
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John (Scouse) Hirons 25 July 2010 14:23
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Pamela Forbes    You are far too fast on that keyboard Scouse! Last edited by Pamela Forbes Alright Pamela, Its dead easy for me, I can hit any key & it will look right to me. When I finish a post poor old Sandie gets the call to check it over.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 15:38
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: John (scouse) Hirons Alright Brian, Name: Brian Davison   Service Number: 22408550 Rank: Private Year Joined: 1950   Where are you now?: Living happily. At the risk of repeating myself why haven't you put any details of your nebulous but undoubted gallant service career on your profile? Jeeze I've heard of the unknown soldier but the unknown Regiment that's a new one. Why havent you brylecreem boy? LMAO Oh!dear God why am I bothering to reply to this noncombatant know all person. bet the nearest you got to a fire arm was when you went to the toilet. and I see you aint bragging about that. Ps all you do is repeat your self.As for teaching I believe the only thing you qualified in was how to stuff snow balls up a snowmans arse
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Colum 25 July 2010 15:54
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Originally Posted by
Why on earth do threads collapse into a slagging match. The first guy who posted was just saying about a new piece of equipment. Our lads anywhere deserve the best that can be provided to protect them from danger. I realise freedom of speech was hard won. The remark about snowmen was in poor taste and uncalled for - at least we can all be adult men and women cant we. This is just my opinion for what it is worth. Its time admin closed this thread - it is not going anywhere.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 16:06
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colum Doherty Why on earth do threads collapse into a slagging match.   The first guy who posted was just saying about a new piece of equipment.   Our lads anywhere deserve the best that can be provided to protect them from danger.   I realise freedom of speech was hard won.   The remark about snowmen was in poor taste and uncalled for - at least we can all be adult men and women cant we.   This is just my opinion for what it is worth.  Its time admin closed this thread - it is not going anywhere. Colum it was meant to be in bad taste in reply to this. Alright Brian, I have tried to give fair & civil answers to your asinine posturing & provocative alleged questions but it seems all you want to do is make silly little quotes straight from "quotes for the brain dead" or try in a very ineffective way to insult me & other posters in a vane attempt to make yourself look like a big boy. All in all you are a silly little man with an exaggerated idea of your own adequacy. And from a man who spent 3 yrs sitting with some fraulein in Germany, then posing questions about anothers service record
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 16:21
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colum Doherty Why on earth do threads collapse into a slagging match.   The first guy who posted was just saying about a new piece of equipment.   Our lads anywhere deserve the best that can be provided to protect them from danger.   I realise freedom of speech was hard won.   The remark about snowmen was in poor taste and uncalled for - at least we can all be adult men and women cant we.   This is just my opinion for what it is worth.  Its time admin closed this thread - it is not going anywhere. Colum in your profile you mention Ballymena. Are you anywhere near Carnlough. If so you will reconise my Surname etc as a lot of my relatives are still living there. Brings back child hood memories.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 16:22
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Colum Doherty Why on earth do threads collapse into a slagging match.   The first guy who posted was just saying about a new piece of equipment.   Our lads anywhere deserve the best that can be provided to protect them from danger.   I realise freedom of speech was hard won.   The remark about snowmen was in poor taste and uncalled for - at least we can all be adult men and women cant we.   This is just my opinion for what it is worth.  Its time admin closed this thread - it is not going anywhere. Colum in your profile you mention Ballymena. Are you anywhere near Carnlough. If so you will reconise my Surname etc as a lot of my relatives are still living there. Brings back child hood memories.
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..... 25 July 2010 17:13
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison Why havent you brylecreem boy? LMAO Oh!dear God why am I bothering to reply to this noncombatant know all person. bet the nearest you got to a fire arm was when you went to the toilet. and I see you aint bragging about that. Ps all you do is repeat your self.As for teaching I believe the only thing you qualified in was how to stuff snow balls up a snowmans arse Brian.I know i was not the only one mystified by some of the quotations you have posted on the other sites but i also know that i will not be on my own at saying that your language here is a disgrace. It seems that you are intent on causing disruption among the members and Quoting bits of the post against John Herons by your "Ally"carrys no weight here as we all know who it is. You give the impression of being, though intelligent, a sad, angry nasty piece of work and i am glad that i do not know you and hope i never meet you.
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Handle Oval Balls With Care. 25 July 2010 17:22
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: john daly Brian.I know i was not the only one mystified by some of the quotations you have posted on the other sites but i also know that i will not be on my own at saying that your language here is a disgrace. It seems that you are intent on causing disruption among the members and Quoting bits of the post against John Herons  by your "Ally"carrys no weight here as we all know who it is. You give the impression of being, though intelligent, a sad, angry nasty piece of work and i am glad that i do not know you and hope i never meet you. You are not wrong there JD.But then we have seen a few who decide to enter the Forum,only for the purpose of creating waves,and in doing so,put off any other decent member for posting themselves.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 17:22
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: john daly Brian.I know i was not the only one mystified by some of the quotations you have posted on the other sites but i also know that i will not be on my own at saying that your language here is a disgrace. It seems that you are intent on causing disruption among the members and Quoting bits of the post against John Herons  by your "Ally"carrys no weight here as we all know who it is. You give the impression of being, though intelligent, a sad, angry nasty piece of work and i am glad that i do not know you and hope i never meet you. Your brain is addled you been to long in the spanish sun. Grow up.
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’Nos Redieramus’ 25 July 2010 17:28
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Mike Ayliffe You are not wrong there JD.But then we have seen a few who decide to enter the Forum,only for the purpose of creating waves,and in doing so,put off any other decent member for posting themselves. Where are the decent members?all i read is moans and groans written by people full of there self importance. What are you all doing trying to relive your past through the efforts of othes.
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..... 25 July 2010 17:32
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Originally Posted by
Quoting: Brian Davison Where are the decent members?all i read is moans and groans written by people full of there self importance. What are you all doing trying to relive your past through the efforts of othes. I dont know about any "othes" but yes now i am convinced about the Sad angry bit.
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